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Old 03-22-2017, 12:17 PM   #21
WAITE HOYT 2
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Originally Posted by UCBearcats View Post
I don't hate Mick, I just want better results. Mick does a lot of things that irritate me and I think his brand of basketball will never bring a high level of success. He has shown in the last couple of years that he's willing to change a bit and we saw some of that pay off this season. If the results keep improving (this season was very good, not good enough) then I'll be happy. We aren't there yet but there are some reasons to be hopeful that Mick just might figure it out. Could we do worse than we've done under Mick? For sure we could but we could also do better.

If your point is to try to convince me that UC shouldn't be great then there's not point in discussing it. I've been down that road too many times on this board. I don't expect us to be Duke or UNC but we're also not Gonzaga either. Our path isn't Duke or UNC or Gonzaga, it's UC. We're a historical top 20 college basketball program and we've been elite before, anything less than that is not acceptable to me. It has nothing to do with hating Mick or wanting Huggins back. If you're happy with not winning conference championships, very rarely being ranked and not advancing past sweet 16's then great, you do you and I'll do me.
I think Micks style is very much a product of the two guys he worked for, Huggins and Pitino. Both put a huge emphasis on defense. It was a fact that under Huggins if you don't guard you don't play. The issue is they get and have much more access to better players. We can debate the reasons why they do until the cows come home. My HO is Mick does a very good job with the hand he is dealt. We could possibly do better and I have seen us do a heck of a lot worse.
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Old 03-22-2017, 12:31 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by WAITE HOYT 2 View Post
I think Micks style is very much a product of the two guys he worked for, Huggins and Pitino. Both put a huge emphasis on defense. It was a fact that under Huggins if you don't guard you don't play. The issue is they get and have much more access to better players. We can debate the reasons why they do until the cows come home. My HO is Mick does a very good job with the hand he is dealt. We could possibly do better and I have seen us do a heck of a lot worse.
I don't really care how he developed his style, I just don't love it. I think until recently Mick was very stubborn and acted like he knew better than everyone else in the profession even though his style was proving time and time again it didn't stack up with the best of the best. Mick is evolving, I hope for the better. I've been very happy with his change of philosophy in recruiting in recent years, Mick sees now that he needs to get scorers and he's done a better job of it recently.

Since you brought it up I'll use the Huggins example. He's a coach who preaches defense and toughness but he also wants to get off as many shots as possible because he knows he needs to outscore the other team. WVU presses and crashes the offense glass in an effort to get up as many shots as possible with the thought being if you can attempt 15-20 more shots than your opponent you'll usually be in a good spot. To me that's an example of a coach who has figured out a way to excel in all aspects of the game. Now obviously it's not fair to compare a highly accomplished HOF coach to Mick Cronin but let's hope Mick evolves to a point where he can have teams who play offense as well as they play defense, if he does that then I think he'll really be on to something. That's going to take Mick doing some self evaluation and admitting to himself that he's wrong about a lot of the ways he looks at the game of basketball.
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Old 03-22-2017, 12:51 PM   #23
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I don't really care how he developed his style, I just don't love it. I think until recently Mick was very stubborn and acted like he knew better than everyone else in the profession even though his style was proving time and time again it didn't stack up with the best of the best. Mick is evolving, I hope for the better. I've been very happy with his change of philosophy in recruiting in recent years, Mick sees now that he needs to get scorers and he's done a better job of it recently.

Since you brought it up I'll use the Huggins example. He's a coach who preaches defense and toughness but he also wants to get off as many shots as possible because he knows he needs to outscore the other team. WVU presses and crashes the offense glass in an effort to get up as many shots as possible with the thought being if you can attempt 15-20 more shots than your opponent you'll usually be in a good spot. To me that's an example of a coach who has figured out a way to excel in all aspects of the game. Now obviously it's not fair to compare a highly accomplished HOF coach to Mick Cronin but let's hope Mick evolves to a point where he can have teams who play offense as well as they play defense, if he does that then I think he'll really be on to something. That's going to take Mick doing some self evaluation and admitting to himself that he's wrong about a lot of the ways he looks at the game of basketball.
Your point about Mick not changing his style is where I think you and I have a difference. He had 4 years of Cash running his offense and 4 years of TC. I really believe if Cash had not gotten injured we may not be having this conversation. When he was recruited it was with the idea that we play a up tempo brand of ball. The injury derailed that idea. TC while a great player was never a PG that was going to lead us in a running style of play. Just not his strength. Micks evolution as a coach will occur because he has the personnel to do it. Can Broome is lightening. Rumor has it he may be the fastest player we have ever had here. We also won't have to be shuttling back and forth between his style and the back up PG, JJ. Both have the same game. Your perception of him as being stubborn and arrogant is where we disagree. He played to the strength of his players. He also was a good enough Coach to win with the players he got. He is now landing players that fit a more up tempo style. I think you'll see the difference this year and it has nothing to do with him being stubborn. It has everything to do with the strengths of his players. Your failure to understand that is a very common theme for the Mick haters who post here. Also for the record who coaches our team is of very little interest to me. As long as he meets my idea of a successful program. You could be the coach for all I care. I don't go to the every game to see Mick Cronin on the sidelines. I go to see the players.
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Old 03-22-2017, 12:58 PM   #24
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Your point about Mick not changing his style is where I think you and I have a difference. He had 4 years of Cash running his offense and 4 years of TC. I really believe if Cash had not gotten injured we may not be having this conversation. When he was recruited it was with the idea that we play a up tempo brand of ball. The injury derailed that idea. TC while a great player was never a PG that was going to lead us in a running style of play. Just not his strength. Micks evolution as a coach will occur because he has the personnel to do it. Can Broome is lightening. Rumor has it he may be the fastest player we have ever had here. We also won't have to be shuttling back and forth between his style and the back up PG, JJ. Both have the same game. Your perception of him as being stubborn and arrogant is where we disagree. He played to the strength of his players. He also was a good enough Coach to win with the players he got. He is now landing players that fit a more up tempo style. I think you'll see the difference this year and it has nothing to do with him being stubborn. It has everything to do with the strengths of his players. Your failure to understand that is a very common theme for the Mick haters who post here. Also for the record who coaches our team is of very little interest to me. As long as he meets my idea of a successful program. You could be the coach for all I care. I don't go to the every game to see Mick Cronin on the sidelines. I go to see the players.
Waite, your bleeding heart and love of excuses will never see eye to eye with my mentality. You summed it up perfectly in your previous post when you mentioned the "hand that Mick was dealt".

You look at the situation and want to point out all the various reasons why something isn't happening and I look at the situation and point the finger at the guy in charge.

Two completely different perspectives, two completely different sets of opinions.

Also, you do realize that Mick recruits his own players right? I think you fail to realize that sometimes.
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Old 03-22-2017, 12:58 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by UCBearcats View Post
let's hope Mick evolves to a point where he can have teams who play offense as well as they play defense, if he does that then I think he'll really be on to something. That's going to take Mick doing some self evaluation and admitting to himself that he's wrong about a lot of the ways he looks at the game of basketball.
I have an honest question for you. Do you pay any attention to the actual program? It's clear from the comment I'm quoting here that you do not. Look at the last 3 classes mick has brought in. How on earth can you say what you just said.


Or how about his comments the other day about how the players he brought in here early in his career are close to having no place in the current game.


Also wvu offense and ours were almost identical in shootings %'s across the board and adjusted offensive efficiency. but since when do facts sway an agenda.
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Old 03-22-2017, 01:03 PM   #26
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I have an honest question for you. Do you pay any attention to the actual program? It's clear from the comment I'm quoting here that you do not. Look at the last 3 classes mick has brought in. How on earth can you say what you just said.


Or how about his comments the other day about how the players he brought in here early in his career are close to having no place in the current game.


Also wvu offense and ours were almost identical in shootings %'s across the board and adjusted offensive efficiency. but since when do facts sway an agenda.
Mick's defenses are usually top 10 to 15 in the country, his offense has never been close to that. I go to every home game, I watch every road game, I see every game we play with my own set of eyes and I don't consult a spreadsheet afterwards to tell me if we played well or not. We scored a lot of points this season against cupcake opponents but against most of the better competition we played the offense struggled.

Also, I don't care about your advanced stats, go talk about them with the birds since that's what they were made for.
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Old 03-22-2017, 01:05 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by UCBearcats View Post

Also, I don't care about your advanced stats, go talk about them with the birds since that's what they were made for.
shooting % is a pretty advanced one, you're right about that marty.
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Old 03-22-2017, 01:11 PM   #28
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shooting % is a pretty advanced one, you're right about that marty.
Shooting percentage has nothing to do with the points I made about WVU. My point about WVU was that their philosophy revolves around the concept of creating as many offensive chances as possible for their team. It's why they press and it's why the crash the offensive glass.

How well their players execute it is a completely different thing. Based on the fact that they're still in the tourney and earned a 4 seed I'd say the execution probably went pretty well.
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Old 03-22-2017, 01:46 PM   #29
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Waite, your bleeding heart and love of excuses will never see eye to eye with my mentality. You summed it up perfectly in your previous post when you mentioned the "hand that Mick was dealt".

You look at the situation and want to point out all the various reasons why something isn't happening and I look at the situation and point the finger at the guy in charge.

Two completely different perspectives, two completely different sets of opinions.

Also, you do realize that Mick recruits his own players right? I think you fail to realize that sometimes.
Bleeding heart. LOL!! Stating the obvious is not bleeding heart. Your failure to grasp the obvious and understand the situation is quite the excuse for you. We are a very good program. I do not have to defend Mick. His performance has earned him the right to continue on as our coach. Actually I'm glad you post here. Your signature comments on the bottom of each of your post really says it all. I have no desire to change coaches. That doesn't mean I wouldn't like to win a few more games.

And yes I know he recruits the players. Another area I am very satisfied with. He gets very good student athletes. They produced a 30 win season and a undefeated home schedule. 3 more will walk this semester.
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Old 03-22-2017, 02:04 PM   #30
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I do not have to defend Mick.
Yet you always do, even when no one is attacking him. You've been posting here long enough to know where I stand yet you're always so infatuated with my opinion of Mick. You think he's the bee's knee's, I think he's pretty good but not great. No amount of long winded, woe is Mick commentary from you is going to change my mind.

I know you're glad I post here Waite, this message board would be a pretty boring place if it was just a bunch of guys sitting around agreeing with each other all the time.
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