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View Poll Results: What will be the outcome of the Wichita State game?
UC wins by 10+ 5 17.24%
UC wins by 7-9 9 31.03%
UC wins by 4-6 5 17.24%
UC wins by 1-3 3 10.34%
Wichita State wins 7 24.14%
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Old 02-22-2018, 04:16 PM   #511
waterhead
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Originally Posted by cincrulz11 View Post
and ill even add cronin has talked in the past about having to force gary and jake to want the ball and be more aggressive.


there are enough scorers on this team, you dont need to force guys into it if they aren't comfortable in that spot.



forcing them into it would make more sense if nobody else was capable of scoring.
Gary, Jake, and Jarron aren't going to be able to carry the load against a good defense if we have 2 other players who don't need attention.

I get that Cronin has reasons for what he does but if there are matchups where Kyle is only good for 17 minutes and Cane for 6...and other players are better in his mind...then we aren't going far in the dance.
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Old 02-22-2018, 04:25 PM   #512
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Kyle's kenpom ORtg has been 92 or worse in all four of our losses though, including a big fat zero against X. In those games he's committed 9 turnovers with only 12 rebounds (and only 1 offensive). He's averaged 20.5 mpg in our losses.

the games where he was a turnover machine he got the minutes. the other 2 games he only had 1.


its, i dont know, strange i guess you could say. you never know exactly what is going to make mick bench a guy.
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Old 02-22-2018, 04:28 PM   #513
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I guess I'd just rather lose bc Washington and/or Broome didn't play well than lose bc one or both were on the bench.
That seems to be the fan consensus. It probably gives the highest upside, and is more exciting. I imagine Cronin is looking for a more consistent approach. It's easy to look back on a game and wonder if different minutes may have helped. But the flip side is more variance doesn't necessarily make us better.

And that's just offense. I think the main reason Kyle and Cane don't both play more than 20 minutes most games is because they're both prone to defensive lapses. Cronin only plays them together 13.7% of the time. A defensive coach is not going to have much patience for multiple players giving up easy looks.

And I'm not sure having them both out there together would help our offense enough to overcome that. They both create with the ball in their hands, and aren't looking for the next pass first. It's good to have at least one player like that, but in my opinion you get decreasing returns from additional similar players on the floor at the same time.

Anyway, there's lots of arguments to be made about our rotations. I think it's a little ridiculous to call Cronin stubborn because he doesn't have the same opinion as the consensus here. Truly being stubborn would mean continuing with his strategy despite a known alternative being clearly superior. We don't know that the alternative is superior. It might be worse. It's up to a coach to determine that through analysis and practice time. He might be wrong, but I don't blame him too much for his decisions with a team ranked #6 in efficiency. If Cronin is stubborn, I think all coaches are.
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Old 02-22-2018, 04:28 PM   #514
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Originally Posted by sedziobs View Post
Kyle's kenpom ORtg has been 92 or worse in all four of our losses though, including a big fat zero against X. In those games he's committed 9 turnovers with only 12 rebounds (and only 1 offensive). He's averaged 20.5 mpg in our losses.

and to go further on this.

Gary has 7 turnovers in those games

Cumberland has 8 turnovers in those games

Evans has 13 turnovers in those games



Those guys HAVE to play better. And most of those turnovers from memory are just sloppy plays, not necessarily forced turnovers.



there are many problems from our loses. It's not simply a minute distribution thing.


hopefully we were just getting the bad ones out of the way!
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Old 02-22-2018, 04:50 PM   #515
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Originally Posted by sedziobs View Post
That seems to be the fan consensus. It probably gives the highest upside, and is more exciting. I imagine Cronin is looking for a more consistent approach. It's easy to look back on a game and wonder if different minutes may have helped. But the flip side is more variance doesn't necessarily make us better.

And that's just offense. I think the main reason Kyle and Cane don't both play more than 20 minutes most games is because they're both prone to defensive lapses. Cronin only plays them together 13.7% of the time. A defensive coach is not going to have much patience for multiple players giving up easy looks.

And I'm not sure having them both out there together would help our offense enough to overcome that. They both create with the ball in their hands, and aren't looking for the next pass first. It's good to have at least one player like that, but in my opinion you get decreasing returns from additional similar players on the floor at the same time.

Anyway, there's lots of arguments to be made about our rotations. I think it's a little ridiculous to call Cronin stubborn because he doesn't have the same opinion as the consensus here. Truly being stubborn would mean continuing with his strategy despite a known alternative being clearly superior. We don't know that the alternative is superior. It might be worse. It's up to a coach to determine that through analysis and practice time. He might be wrong, but I don't blame him too much for his decisions with a team ranked #6 in efficiency. If Cronin is stubborn, I think all coaches are.
There are a lot of good points in here. The game I wonder most about is @Houston. Whatever was happening out there (which was brutal) was in some way BETTER to Cronin than the alternative of giving Cane a serious look. That is really scary...lol!

With Kyle we usually have a pretty good idea why he sits. With Cane we have to wonder especially after he reduced his turnovers. Many people thought that was the big issue. Obviously there is more to it.
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Old 02-22-2018, 05:53 PM   #516
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There are a lot of good points in here. The game I wonder most about is @Houston. Whatever was happening out there (which was brutal) was in some way BETTER to Cronin than the alternative of giving Cane a serious look. That is really scary...lol!

With Kyle we usually have a pretty good idea why he sits. With Cane we have to wonder especially after he reduced his turnovers. Many people thought that was the big issue. Obviously there is more to it.
With Houston being very good on perimeter he opted for the bigger guys with Evans running the PG. While I agree we need to pick it up offensively regardless if Broome plays more or not if Evans doesn't pick it up we are in trouble
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Old 02-22-2018, 06:00 PM   #517
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With Houston being very good on perimeter he opted for the bigger guys with Evans running the PG. While I agree we need to pick it up offensively regardless if Broome plays more or not if Evans doesn't pick it up we are in trouble
6 minutes is an extreme case. I think something else was going on aside from just performance and strategy.
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Old 02-24-2018, 01:45 PM   #518
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6 minutes is an extreme case. I think something else was going on aside from just performance and strategy.
I truly just think with the way the game was being played with Houston being overly physical and grabbing and pushing, Cronin wanted his strongest players and wanted length. When Cane got in he made bad mistakes quick and that rubs Cronin the wrong way. Couple that with him saying Broome hadn't been practicing hard and it's not too hard to see why Cronin didn't go with him. And Cane hadn't been exactly lighting it up offensively since his injury. He gave the minutes to Moore, not Jenifer so it's not like he's playing favorites as some want to suggest.
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Old 02-24-2018, 02:04 PM   #519
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I truly just think with the way the game was being played with Houston being overly physical and grabbing and pushing, Cronin wanted his strongest players and wanted length. When Cane got in he made bad mistakes quick and that rubs Cronin the wrong way. Couple that with him saying Broome hadn't been practicing hard and it's not too hard to see why Cronin didn't go with him. And Cane hadn't been exactly lighting it up offensively since his injury. He gave the minutes to Moore, not Jenifer so it's not like he's playing favorites as some want to suggest.
I don't get this though. We are a very physical and defensive minded team. But what gives us trouble? Jet quick guards who can beat us off the dribble. So why can't we turn the tables on the opponent when we are up against the type of D we play?
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Old 02-24-2018, 02:43 PM   #520
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He gave the minutes to Moore, not Jenifer so it's not like he's playing favorites as some want to suggest.
i'd suggest you look into those minutes played again if you think what you just said is true.
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