@South Florida

[WAITE HOYT 2]

Originally Posted by justinhub2003

Here is a stat that sticks out to me and why Jenifer starts the game with our 4 best players:
% shot
Washington: 25.3%
Evans: 22.4%
Clark: 21.4%
Cumberland: 24.2%


Now look at our 2 PG:
Jenifer: 14.9
Broome: 21.2

Jenifer is in the lineup with those guys because he is a non scorer and will just feed these guys. Cane couldnt start and maintain his current usage rate. His either goes down or it comes at the expense of Evans or Clark, who you want shooting.

Off the bench and in the game with more low usage guys, cane can play his game.

I look at those numbers and it makes perfect sense to me. Cane is the better player and mick knows it and his strategy is built around getting his better play the most usuage in parts of the game where we might other wise be lacking in offense.


Again, I’d love Cane Broome to start. But I totally get why he doesn’t and it has nothing to do with his abilities but more so with strategy.

Either way I’m done talking about it.

Exactly!!!! Coaches have been utilizing a 6th man for years now. Their value has evolved to the point that there is a award given out. 6th man of the year. Cane is very valuable to this team in his current role.

[waterhead]

Originally Posted by justinhub2003

Every game is important. Our current strategy is working though. We destroyed SMU and cane still had a bum ankle. We couldn’t play cane against temple so it’s a moot point.

I just cannot think of a single game this year where mick mishandled the use of cane to our detriment. I mean can you?

You guys act like in game strategy can’t be changed on the fly.

If by "to our detriment" you mean wins and losses I don't think anyone can prove a theoretical situation cost us a game. What I think most of us our talking about is to our detriment in terms of overall plus minus as a team. If we have a player that can offer us more plus minus as a team when he is in the game then any points we lose (or don't gain) when he is not in the game is "to our detriment".

In terms of adjusting strategy on the fly. I think we all know the starter is going to at least get the first 4 minutes of each half. It COULD change but it hasn't (or it's very rare). Jenifer isn't getting pulled before 4 minutes if the team can't score. He might get pulled for mistakes...but not for team production. Jenifer could have 0 turnovers and the team could score 0 points in 4 minutes theoretically without him getting pulled.

Without the benefit of overall plus minus stats we have to look at particular instances and the "eye test". I think most fans see it. Cane has been a part of some pretty big runs in the last couple of games that have blown the game wide open. Small sample...but you get the picture. I would love to see the plus minus on Jenifer and Cane since the X game.

I know it's coaches decision but we have seen it take much longer for him to make a change that most fans were already aware of. It took an injury with Thomas to get Evans in more. It took a different coach in Larry Davis with Cobb starting over KJ. Cumberland getting more minutes was another example. Bottom line is many fans were all over those changes before they happened...and they were good changes. I just don't want to see us drop a game we should have won because we didn't have the better player on the floor long enough or from start to finish.

It is what it is I guess. I hope to see it happen...but I am prepared for it not to happen as well.

[WAITE HOYT 2]

Originally Posted by waterhead

If by "to our detriment" you mean wins and losses I don't think anyone can prove a theoretical situation cost us a game. What I think most of us our talking about is to our detriment in terms of overall plus minus as a team. If we have a player that can offer us more plus minus as a team when he is in the game then any points we lose (or don't gain) when he is not in the game is "to our detriment".

In terms of adjusting strategy on the fly. I think we all know the starter is going to at least get the first 4 minutes of each half. It COULD change but it hasn't (or it's very rare). Jenifer isn't getting pulled before 4 minutes if the team can't score. He might get pulled for mistakes...but not for team production. Jenifer could have 0 turnovers and the team could score 0 points in 4 minutes theoretically without him getting pulled.

Without the benefit of overall plus minus stats we have to look at particular instances and the "eye test". I think most fans see it. Cane has been a part of some pretty big runs in the last couple of games that have blown the game wide open. Small sample...but you get the picture. I would love to see the plus minus on Jenifer and Cane since the X game.

I know it's coaches decision but we have seen it take much longer for him to make a change that most fans were already aware of. It took an injury with Thomas to get Evans in more. It took a different coach in Larry Davis with Cobb starting over KJ. Cumberland getting more minutes was another example. Bottom line is many fans were all over those changes before they happened...and they were good changes. I just don't want to see us drop a game we should have won because we didn't have the better player on the floor long enough or from start to finish.

It is what it is I guess. I hope to see it happen...but I am prepared for it not to happen as well.

I hope we keep winning regardless of who starts. I personally love the way the roles are forming. I appreciate the way he uses Cane and think it is the right way. His performance and the performance of the team backs that up. We are ranked and winning. If you want to sit back and second guess the coach be my guest.

[waterhead]

Originally Posted by WAITE HOYT 2

He is coaching, not dividing up game minutes. He has a role for Cane. You may not like it or agree with it but that is a fact. Coach sees a much bigger need for Cane coming off the bench and filling different roles. We have been very successful to this point. If he feels the need to change it I'm sure he will.

I'm not sure it's a role as much as it is defining his coaching culture. All we have to do is look back to KJ and Cobb, Thomas and Evans, KJ and Cumberland. Coach prefers to reward things like tenure, effort, ball security, or defense over and above how the team performs on the court when a better basketball player is in the game.

I think coach has done a great job of building that culture and the players have responded with effort over the years. I think he likes to get the better players playing as hard as they can before setting them loose. I can live with that philosophy...but I don't think this is "role based" decision making for some of these guys like Cane. It's sending a consistent message to the team and all the players on the bench that nobody is above doing what he wants them to do. You don't create that culture by dismissing it for certain players because they are too good to keep off the floor.

I think Cane has responded well but perhaps coach has a few more teaching moments before he takes the leash off.

[waterhead]

Originally Posted by WAITE HOYT 2

I hope we keep winning regardless of who starts. I personally love the way the roles are forming. I appreciate the way he uses Cane and think it is the right way. His performance and the performance of the team backs that up. We are ranked and winning. If you want to sit back and second guess the coach be my guest.

That's what we do here...lol!

We have been a very good program overall (and I have enjoyed it) but we are not seeing a lot of "extra results" in March tourneys. Could it be because the team hasn't had enough time oiling the machine with all the best players in together? Building that chemistry of the team you are actually going to use in March crunch time?

Could we have benefited in March by getting these better players on the floor longer during the season and playing along side the other starters? IDK but it's certainly possible. We have made moves late in the year to get guys like Cobb, Evans, Cumberland more minutes...I would just rather see it happen a little earlier so we can oil that machine we are going to be using in the biggest games.

[WAITE HOYT 2]

Originally Posted by waterhead

I'm not sure it's a role as much as it is defining his coaching culture. All we have to do is look back to KJ and Cobb, Thomas and Evans, KJ and Cumberland. Coach prefers to reward things like tenure, effort, ball security, or defense over and above how the team performs on the court when a better basketball player is in the game.

I think coach has done a great job of building that culture and the players have responded with effort over the years. I think he likes to get the better players playing as hard as they can before setting them loose. I can live with that philosophy...but I don't think this is "role based" decision making for some of these guys like Cane. It's sending a consistent message to the team and all the players on the bench that nobody is above doing what he wants them to do. You don't create that culture by dismissing it for certain players because they are too good to keep off the floor.

I think Cane has responded well but perhaps coach has a few more teaching moments before he takes the leash off.

Disagree. This IS role related. Not saying there isn't added benefits to the decision but having his versatility and scoring coming off the bench is huge. A role JJ couldn't fill. I say that not to downgrade JJ as a player because he has played very well in the role he is asked to perform.His Ast/To is good, he is hitting FT's and I have been surprised how pesky he has been on defense. His steady play has ALLOWED Cronin to utilize Cane for a much bigger need, spark off the bench that can change the pace and play either wing or PG. Without his bench scoring we would have none. My hat is off to JJ and Cane. Also to Cronin for having employed this strategy.

[cincrulz11]

Originally Posted by waterhead

I'm not sure it's a role as much as it is defining his coaching culture. All we have to do is look back to KJ and Cobb, Thomas and Evans, KJ and Cumberland. Coach prefers to reward things like tenure, effort, ball security, or defense over and above how the team performs on the court when a better basketball player is in the game.

and loyalty, you forgot to add loyalty. its probably the most important one. you stay the course with mick and you're gonna get to play (assuming there aren't older guys ahead of you). it doesn't matter that a new guy is more talented than you. mick has shown this over and over.

[jacobkdoyle]

Originally Posted by waterhead

If by "to our detriment" you mean wins and losses I don't think anyone can prove a theoretical situation cost us a game. What I think most of us our talking about is to our detriment in terms of overall plus minus as a team. If we have a player that can offer us more plus minus as a team when he is in the game then any points we lose (or don't gain) when he is not in the game is "to our detriment".

In terms of adjusting strategy on the fly. I think we all know the starter is going to at least get the first 4 minutes of each half. It COULD change but it hasn't (or it's very rare). Jenifer isn't getting pulled before 4 minutes if the team can't score. He might get pulled for mistakes...but not for team production. Jenifer could have 0 turnovers and the team could score 0 points in 4 minutes theoretically without him getting pulled.

Without the benefit of overall plus minus stats we have to look at particular instances and the "eye test". I think most fans see it. Cane has been a part of some pretty big runs in the last couple of games that have blown the game wide open. Small sample...but you get the picture. I would love to see the plus minus on Jenifer and Cane since the X game.

I know it's coaches decision but we have seen it take much longer for him to make a change that most fans were already aware of. It took an injury with Thomas to get Evans in more. It took a different coach in Larry Davis with Cobb starting over KJ. Cumberland getting more minutes was another example. Bottom line is many fans were all over those changes before they happened...and they were good changes. I just don't want to see us drop a game we should have won because we didn't have the better player on the floor long enough or from start to finish.

It is what it is I guess. I hope to see it happen...but I am prepared for it not to happen as well.

The bold part doesn't sound like a scenario where Jenifer would be at fault.

Individual ORtg is not my favorite stat and isn't a real apples to apples but if we can't find +/- here you go:
Jenifer 124.0 (2nd on team)
Broome 115.1 (6th on team)

This argument has been beat to death. It's not up to any of us. Coach gave his reasons (he didn't have to). Probably time to move on.

[jacobkdoyle]

I bet we use Broome a lot against UCF.

[justinhub2003]

Originally Posted by jacobkdoyle

I bet we use Broome a lot against UCF.

Agree and hope we do.

I wanna see him give tacko that work