UNLV

[skyblade]

Originally Posted by cincyguy13

With Vogt you just have to take him for what he is. He has plenty of issues. He’s slow, can’t move, can’t shoot, struggles at the line. If he could do all those things, he wouldn’t be here. If he can give us what brooks did or something close, that’s all I want. And we have another year of him.

Vogt has actually shot pretty well from the FT line. He is probably the only player on the team exceeding expectations when it comes to FT shooting.

Brooks could move, shoot a bit, defend and was excellent at rebounding. Scoring wise, Vogt can give us something close to (or even a bit better than) Brooks. But if you include defense and rebounding - especially offensive rebounding - Vogt is nowhere close to what Brooks gave.

[Alum2013]

Originally Posted by skyblade

Vogt has actually shot pretty well from the FT line. He is probably the only player on the team exceeding expectations when it comes to FT shooting.

Brooks could move, shoot a bit, defend and was excellent at rebounding. Scoring wise, Vogt can give us something close to (or even a bit better than) Brooks. But if you include defense and rebounding - especially offensive rebounding - Vogt is nowhere close to what Brooks gave.

Vogt is a much better scorer than Brooks and it's not even close. Stop it.

[cincyguy13]

Originally Posted by skyblade

Vogt has actually shot pretty well from the FT line. He is probably the only player on the team exceeding expectations when it comes to FT shooting.

Brooks could move, shoot a bit, defend and was excellent at rebounding. Scoring wise, Vogt can give us something close to (or even a bit better than) Brooks. But if you include defense and rebounding - especially offensive rebounding - Vogt is nowhere close to what Brooks gave.

Just not sure what you want from the constant “Vogt has problems” talk. I think everyone on here and in the world understands he has issues. But praise the guy when he is playing well. And to this point, the guy is playing well.

[cincyguy13]

Also we are playing decent teams. We haven’t had too many sub 250 games like years past. Vogt isn’t doing this against coppin state. And I can’t remember a missed dunk or easy layup for Vogt. Couldnt say that about brooks

[cincrulz11]

Originally Posted by cincyguy13

Also we are playing decent teams. We haven’t had too many sub 250 games like years past. Vogt isn’t doing this against coppin state. And I can’t remember a missed dunk or easy layup for Vogt. Couldnt say that about brooks

we aren't playing well, thats for sure, but you gotta feel like these games are great for teaching and getting better. you don't learn a whole lot crushing the 250+ teams. we played 1 and won by 32 without jarron. whats that do for anybody.



i liked that we changed our style in the 2nd half. it won the game.



this end of game lack of focus has gotta go though. tre scott has made bonehead plays in 3 of the last 4 games almost costing us our 3 wins. can't have that from the Srs.

[skyblade]

Originally Posted by cincyguy13

Just not sure what you want from the constant “Vogt has problems” talk. I think everyone on here and in the world understands he has issues. But praise the guy when he is playing well. And to this point, the guy is playing well.

Mostly it's because of comparisons to Brooks. Yes, Vogt has played well on offense - but he has been horrible at offensive rebounding - he has 2 offensive rebounds in his last 100+ minutes of play - and not great on the boards. Brooks was a very good all around player, Vogt is excellent at scoring when posted deep, but average to a liability in most other aspects.

Jaevin is very similar at guard. Excellent at offense, but average defensively and can't rebound. The difference is that people aren't comparing Jaevin to a guy who was very good in all three aspects (not sure we've had a guard who is a very good scorer, rebounder and defender lately, maybe Caupain). If people were, I'd be pointing out the difference there as well.

[Queens_NYC]

On the whole, that UNLV team was not good, and I think we'll be lucky if that win manifests itself as a Q3 win by season's end (meaning UNLV finishes with a top 160 NET).

We didn't have a single starter make a FG for the final 16 minutes of the first half. Jarron made 2 FTs during that stretch; no other starters scored. The byproduct of guys like Jarron and Keith (among others) not getting a rhythm going early in the game was being down 9 at the half at home to an underwhelming opponent.

2nd half was much better. We imposed our will, outscoring UNLV 34-15, before a mix of missed FTs and that Mitrou player going full beastmode in the final minute allowed the game to go OT.

I think it's apparent now that McNeal is not a high-major starting PG and I'm glad MAW got so much playing time at the 1 in his place.

[Emperor Snapper]

Originally Posted by Mort82

"Horrible historically"? Where's that come from?

Brannen hasn't been a HC very long, but overall his teams have not been good at the line. During the same period, UC under Cronin was perhaps slightly better, but historically UC over the past 30 years or so has generally not been good. The best FT team UC has had since 1990 was Andy Kennedy's one team. FWIW, Kennedy's teams at Old Miss ran the gamut - the best were much better than anything UC has seen, peaking around 77%, but the worst were terrible, down around 60%.

For perspective, median FT% in the NCAA hovers a little above 70%, and it definitely helps but certainly isn't a cure all - the best FT team in the country last year won 6 games all season. Here is a rundown of UC's team FT% by year

Huggins:
1990 65.6%
1991 64.8
1992 65.4
1993 63.9
1994 68.5
1995 65.8
1996 67.6
1997 68.7
1998 67.9
1999 68.0
2000 70.1
2001 69.7
2002 70.9
2003 69.0
2004 66.9
2005 69.0

Bad, but his 5 best FT shooting teams came in his last 6 years, including the only 2 to hit 70%

Kennedy

2006 74.7%

This was helped a lot by James White and Devan Downey, who were both excellent FT shooters (esp White) and took a lot. Eric Hicks was the only other player with more than 70 FT attempts.

Cronin (with Brannen's NKU teams side-by-side for comparison
2007 66.1%
2008 66.5
2009 65.7
2010 63.8
2011 66.8
2012 64.4
2013 64.7
2014 70.8
2015 67.0
2016 70.5 / 68.3
2017 68.6 / 68.0
2018 69.2 / 73.1
2019 70.4 / 66.0

Brannen

2020 64.3% so far

Mick's pattern is weirdly like Huggins - very bad in the early years, inching up to average-ish at the end. I have no idea if that means anything.

Brannen's 2018 team, like Kennedy's lone UC team, featured two guys who took a lot of FT and were excellent from the line. The 2019 team also had two heavy FT shooters who were (slightly less) excellent, but the rest of the team just clanged everything. They were the 5th-worst FT team to make the tournament.

Given the way that team FT% is so heavily influenced by 2-4 players, getting those guys right is the key. Cumberland is taking almost 10 FT a game, and his % is down 140 points from last year, on pace to be the worst of his career. McNeal is second in FT attempts and down 302(!!!) points from the last season he played - although he is not likely to wind up at the line 21 times in a single game again. Vogt will likely wind up 2nd in FT attempts - he is a bad FT shooter, but has improved immensely this season - 62% after being a sub 40% shooter at NKU

5 of the other 6 guys averaging 1 attempt+ per game are 75% or better, so if Cumberland can get right, and Vogt can maintain mediocrity, this could be an average or better FT shooting team the rest of the way.

[cincyguy13]

Originally Posted by Queens_NYC

On the whole, that UNLV team was not good, and I think we'll be lucky if that win manifests itself as a Q3 win by season's end (meaning UNLV finishes with a top 160 NET).

We didn't have a single starter make a FG for the final 16 minutes of the first half. Jarron made 2 FTs during that stretch; no other starters scored. The byproduct of guys like Jarron and Keith (among others) not getting a rhythm going early in the game was being down 9 at the half at home to an underwhelming opponent.

2nd half was much better. We imposed our will, outscoring UNLV 34-15, before a mix of missed FTs and that Mitrou player going full beastmode in the final minute allowed the game to go OT.

I think it's apparent now that McNeal is not a high-major starting PG and I'm glad MAW got so much playing time at the 1 in his place.

McNeal is in his head. I don’t think he is great but he’s not as bad as he has been playing he last couple games. The Ohio state game he was fine.

[cincyguy13]

Originally Posted by Emperor Snapper

Brannen hasn't been a HC very long, but overall his teams have not been good at the line. During the same period, UC under Cronin was perhaps slightly better, but historically UC over the past 30 years or so has generally not been good. The best FT team UC has had since 1990 was Andy Kennedy's one team. FWIW, Kennedy's teams at Old Miss ran the gamut - the best were much better than anything UC has seen, peaking around 77%, but the worst were terrible, down around 60%.

For perspective, median FT% in the NCAA hovers a little above 70%, and it definitely helps but certainly isn't a cure all - the best FT team in the country last year won 6 games all season. Here is a rundown of UC's team FT% by year

Huggins:
1990 65.6%
1991 64.8
1992 65.4
1993 63.9
1994 68.5
1995 65.8
1996 67.6
1997 68.7
1998 67.9
1999 68.0
2000 70.1
2001 69.7
2002 70.9
2003 69.0
2004 66.9
2005 69.0

Bad, but his 5 best FT shooting teams came in his last 6 years, including the only 2 to hit 70%

Kennedy

2006 74.7%

This was helped a lot by James White and Devan Downey, who were both excellent FT shooters (esp White) and took a lot. Eric Hicks was the only other player with more than 70 FT attempts.

Cronin (with Brannen's NKU teams side-by-side for comparison
2007 66.1%
2008 66.5
2009 65.7
2010 63.8
2011 66.8
2012 64.4
2013 64.7
2014 70.8
2015 67.0
2016 70.5 / 68.3
2017 68.6 / 68.0
2018 69.2 / 73.1
2019 70.4 / 66.0

Brannen

2020 64.3% so far

Mick's pattern is weirdly like Huggins - very bad in the early years, inching up to average-ish at the end. I have no idea if that means anything.

Brannen's 2018 team, like Kennedy's lone UC team, featured two guys who took a lot of FT and were excellent from the line. The 2019 team also had two heavy FT shooters who were (slightly less) excellent, but the rest of the team just clanged everything. They were the 5th-worst FT team to make the tournament.

Given the way that team FT% is so heavily influenced by 2-4 players, getting those guys right is the key. Cumberland is taking almost 10 FT a game, and his % is down 140 points from last year, on pace to be the worst of his career. McNeal is second in FT attempts and down 302(!!!) points from the last season he played - although he is not likely to wind up at the line 21 times in a single game again. Vogt will likely wind up 2nd in FT attempts - he is a bad FT shooter, but has improved immensely this season - 62% after being a sub 40% shooter at NKU

5 of the other 6 guys averaging 1 attempt+ per game are 75% or better, so if Cumberland can get right, and Vogt can maintain mediocrity, this could be an average or better FT shooting team the rest of the way.

This is far from “historically horrible.” At least don’t make things up.