Xavier

[justinhub2003]

Originally Posted by cincrulz11

and as i stated before, it wasn't just Vogt.


Jarron Cumberland vs Xavier

On the floor (55 possessions)
0.86 pts per poss. scored
1.15 ppp allowed

Off the floor (20 possessions)
0.94 ppp scored
0.55 ppp allowed



If you were on the court when Marshall was going off, your stats are gonna be awful.

But Jarron at least has a reason. He has a hip pointer, which can linger all season and can be really painful.


Vogt is who he is defensively.

His all season long numbers grade him as one of the worst defenders in the country. His offensive numbers are offset by bad defense.


its Brannen's job to hide him now. Because You can bet Tenn, Iowa, Houston, Memphis, Temple, WSU and everyone else is going to see that POOR next to his name in synergy and they are going to try and exploit him.

Next move is John Brannen's

[justinhub2003]

Originally Posted by skyblade

Can you give the same numbers for Diarra this season? Or is his sample size too small? I'm guessing he's either very good or excellent on defense and poor on offense. Also do you have Diarra's +/- for Xavier (I'm guessing he was +6, but I don't have the stat).

Vogt has played better than I expected and fouled less than I expected. I don't hate him. But he is no more a complete player than Nsoseme was last year, or Diarra is this year.

I'd love to have a complete center (Brooks) who can perform at a high level on both ends of the court. But what we have this year is center who is excellent on offense and bad on defense and another who is excellent at defense, but bad at offense.

They should be used situationally depending on matchups (or we should go small). If Vogt isn't getting beat on defense let him play. But you can't keep a center on the court who is as big of a liability on defense as Vogt is - when the other team is able to take advantage of the mismatch - and expect to beat good teams.

Diarra is Below average on offense ( .737 ppp)

and Excellent on Defense (Nysier brooks like numbers) at .58 ppp Which is better than 88% of the country.



So whats interesting about Diarra is that his mistakes stick out like a sore thumb and even with those visible defensive mistakes, he still grades out as probably the best defender on the team

[cincrulz11]

Originally Posted by justinhub2003

Yea


They just need to scheme around his defensive issues. I had a perfect vantage point at the game, where X would purposely get Vogt up at the top of the key and then we'd just get beat off the dribble for the most uncontested layups I've ever seen in my life (Mick and Huggins both had good rim protectors)


Thats where the Defense is so bad.

If you have a great mobile shot blocker, it can hide your wings getting beat off the bounce

Mick always wanted his gaurds funneling their man into the shot blockers in the paint.


But when you have guys who can't guard anyone on the perimeter, coupled with a slow footed big, its receipe for defensive disaster

yeah its not good. although all that being said we held them under 1 ppp for the game. we just have no offense ourselves with jarron struggling. (berg has the game at 75 possessions, barttorvik at 72, but either way thats great D and bad O.)

[skyblade]

Originally Posted by justinhub2003

Yea


They just need to scheme around his defensive issues. I had a perfect vantage point at the game, where X would purposely get Vogt up at the top of the key and then we'd just get beat off the dribble for the most uncontested layups I've ever seen in my life (Mick and Huggins both had good rim protectors)


Thats where the Defense is so bad.

If you have a great mobile shot blocker, it can hide your wings getting beat off the bounce

Mick always wanted his gaurds funneling their man into the shot blockers in the paint.


But when you have guys who can't guard anyone on the perimeter, coupled with a slow footed big, its receipe for defensive disaster

This is what I see almost every game, though it stood out more against Xavier. If you can pull Vogt away from the basket, he becomes worthless on defense.

There are other issues as well. Jarron is worse on defense than he has been in the past (either injury or different scheme), Jaevin isn't good at preventing dribble penetration. Scott isn't either. But in the past (or if Diarra is in the game), if the guard makes a mistake and his guy gets by him, we had a mobile center to provide help and limit the damage.

Now if you pull Vogt away from the basket - which hasn't been hard for most teams - there are open layups to be had.

[cincrulz11]

Originally Posted by justinhub2003

But Jarron at least has a reason. He has a hip pointer, which can linger all season and can be really painful.

he did have a reason. but that reason is why we aren't nearly the team we could be.



when jarron is putting up numbers like that, and its been a common theme this year, we are in trouble.



nobody would have given us a chance this year if we'd been told jarron would be one of our worst players. we have to hope for it to get better real quick.

[justinhub2003]

Originally Posted by cincrulz11

yeah its not good. although all that being said we held them under 1 ppp for the game. we just have no offense ourselves with jarron struggling. (berg has the game at 75 possessions, barttorvik at 72, but either way thats great D and bad O.)

Sure.

its just.. they aren't a good offense. we will see better offenses in the AAC.

in raw offensive efficiency Xavier ranks 186th

Sadly our offense is even worst at 207 and our defense is 103



This is why im not optomistic about the season. We've yet to look good in wins or losses and the numbers reflect that. I also think this team is emotionless.


I think brannen needs to get a little more fire in him, because while mick was an absolute nut, I'd like to see our coach showing some passion when were down 12 and playing like shit.

Get a technical . Just do something to make your team look alive

[cincrulz11]

Originally Posted by justinhub2003

I also think this team is emotionless.

the team does not have a leader. ive often thought about that. jarron isn't vocal and im not sure what scott is but it sure isn't a leader.



ive always been of the belief that teams need player leaders. theres only so much a coach can do, but when you have other players holding you accountable for mistakes it seems to go better. instead we got scott making mistakes and blaming others. jarron doesn't talk to anybody. keith seems super quiet. nobody else has been around.

[skyblade]

Originally Posted by justinhub2003

Diarra is Below average on offense ( .737 ppp)

and Excellent on Defense (Nysier brooks like numbers) at .58 ppp Which is better than 88% of the country.



So whats interesting about Diarra is that his mistakes stick out like a sore thumb and even with those visible defensive mistakes, he still grades out as probably the best defender on the team

I'm glad the more advanced stats back up what I've been saying. Thank you Justin for paying for them and providing them here.

Diarra seems like one of those guys who needs to come in and make a couple boneheaded plays before he gets into the flow of the game. Those plays tend to stand out to fans and because his impact is on defense and not on offense, his contributions don't get much notice.

If we could put Vogt's mind in Diarra's body, we'd likely have a future NBA draft pick. Unfortunately we can't. But we can trust that Diarra will improve on offense as he gains experience. Vogt is who he is on defense, we either need to change the scheme to hide his weaknesses, or sit him against teams that take advantage of his defensive weakness.

It's very similar to Kyle Washington. Cronin was never willing to change the scheme to hide him. But he did at least sit him when teams exposed the mismatch. So far Brannen has been unwilling to change the scheme or sit Vogt when teams take advantage of the mismatch, that needs to change very soon or our next 4 games could have bad results.

[skyblade]

Originally Posted by cincrulz11

the team does not have a leader. ive often thought about that. jarron isn't vocal and im not sure what scott is but it sure isn't a leader.



ive always been of the belief that teams need player leaders. theres only so much a coach can do, but when you have other players holding you accountable for mistakes it seems to go better. instead we got scott making mistakes and blaming others. jarron doesn't talk to anybody. keith seems super quiet. nobody else has been around.

Brannen was trying to make McNeal the leader. Then McNeal started playing and stunk it up on the court.

Jarron has never really been a leader, though Cronin tried to force him into the role. Scott seems to be the best leader we have, but he also seems to be having trouble adjusting to the new scheme. Keith as you said also seems pretty quiet and also confused at times. Maw seems like he may take over as the leader next year, but as a freshman that's probably too much to ask this year.

[cincyalum2014]

Originally Posted by skyblade

Can you give the same numbers for Diarra this season? Or is his sample size too small? I'm guessing he's either very good or excellent on defense and poor on offense. Also do you have Diarra's +/- for Xavier (I'm guessing he was +6, but I don't have the stat).

Vogt has played better than I expected and fouled less than I expected. I don't hate him. But he is no more a complete player than Nsoseme was last year, or Diarra is this year.

I'd love to have a complete center (Brooks) who can perform at a high level on both ends of the court. But what we have this year is center who is excellent on offense and bad on defense and another who is excellent at defense, but bad at offense.

They should be used situationally depending on matchups (or we should go small). If Vogt isn't getting beat on defense let him play. But you can't keep a center on the court who is as big of a liability on defense as Vogt is - when the other team is able to take advantage of the mismatch - and expect to beat good teams.

You literally just named two of the worst players for UC in the last 20 years There is a reason Nsoseme was not recruited and he is now at Georgia State.