USF: the battle for.... I have no idea. Hopefully something

[cincrulz11]

Originally Posted by cincyguy13

I thought we would lose when hearing jarron wasn’t playing. Glad we won. Almost wonder if jarron should rest another game. A healthy jarron would be a game changer for the conference tournament. I think we might be the best team with a healthy jarron. I have no idea if sitting another game will get him there though.

if its plantar fasciitis as has been suggested its gonna take a long longer than a couple days off for that to be 100%

[skyblade]

Originally Posted by Lawrugby

Seems there must be a stock way to defend Vogt and league understands that so we need to go to Diara. Maybe Brannen has been slow to realize that because he favors Vogt.

Two things have happened as far as I can tell.

One is that teams have figured out the rotations. Vogt was getting wide open of screen and rolls early in the year. That does not happen now. Teams have figured out how to prevent the ball from getting to Vogt in our offensive sets.

The second part is that Vogt is soft and not athletic. Early in the season he was able to just use his size advantage to get shots. Now almost every team has either the size, athleticism or both to compete with him. Vogt does not seem to deal well with other teams physicality.

[skyblade]

Originally Posted by cincyguy13

To say Vogt hasn’t improved this year is another idiotic thing to say. Add it to the list. The guys been terrible for a month but how quickly we forget the first 3 months of the year when he was one of the guys carrying us. Putting up double figures in every game. Guess that doesn’t count toward player development.

I continue to submit that Vogt lost us as many games (or more) than he won for us, even early in the season.

He was at least arguably doing more good than harm when he was scoring. Now he is borderline unplayable with his defense and lack of scoring.

The difference between the defensive abilities of Vogt and Diarra is huge. When Vogt is in we double Vogt's man, collapse more guys to the paint to provide help and have trouble stopping the drive. With Diarra in we don't need to double, Diarra cuts off drives before they even start and provides good help defense in the paint (though he is still learning when to go for the block and when he should back-off and box-out).

Diarra is averaging only 1.3 fewer points in conference than Vogt, rebounds better, defends better and can stretch the floor by shooting threes. Yes, he is more mistake prone, but we've seen that if he's given time and a chance to play through the mistakes, he is a better player than Vogt (and has way more potential).

[cincyalum2014]

Originally Posted by skyblade

Two things have happened as far as I can tell.

One is that teams have figured out the rotations. Vogt was getting wide open of screen and rolls early in the year. That does not happen now. Teams have figured out how to prevent the ball from getting to Vogt in our offensive sets.

The second part is that Vogt is soft and not athletic. Early in the season he was able to just use his size advantage to get shots. Now almost every team has either the size, athleticism or both to compete with him. Vogt does not seem to deal well with other teams physicality.

Vogt is very soft, he was a bully to the smaller schools early in the year due to his size, but in conference play against better teams it doesn't work. I agree Diarra needs to play more and he has no choice but to play now with us only having 8-9 healthy players. Diarra absolutely has his limitations and still makes bone headed plays but its what we have, worst case scenario for us is if Scott gets into foul trouble early because then we either have to go Diarra and Vogt on the court together which I do not want or we have to go extremely small.

I also feel Brannen at times has a loyalty to Vogt because of his time at NKU, which I understand.

[cincrulz11]

I'm sure Brannen would have no problem playing Diarra more if Diarra was consistent at all.


Also there are matchups that aren't good for Diarra. USF was a great one for him.

[skyblade]

Originally Posted by cincyguy13

I thought we would lose when hearing jarron wasn’t playing. Glad we won. Almost wonder if jarron should rest another game. A healthy jarron would be a game changer for the conference tournament. I think we might be the best team with a healthy jarron. I have no idea if sitting another game will get him there though.

In the second half, we honestly looked like we might be a better team without Jarron at 75% - or whatever % he's been at when injured.

I'd be okay with sitting Jarron next game and maybe even the first game of the conference tournament. Win the games we should win without him. Try to rest him up for the last pair of conference games and the NCAA tournament. If/when he does play I'd either have a minutes limit on him or only give him 5ish minutes in the first half and then play him in the second.

All indicates are that he's not going to be 100% any time this season. It's just a matter of getting what quality minutes we can out of him, when we most need them.

[cincyguy13]

Originally Posted by skyblade

Two things have happened as far as I can tell.

One is that teams have figured out the rotations. Vogt was getting wide open of screen and rolls early in the year. That does not happen now. Teams have figured out how to prevent the ball from getting to Vogt in our offensive sets.

The second part is that Vogt is soft and not athletic. Early in the season he was able to just use his size advantage to get shots. Now almost every team has either the size, athleticism or both to compete with him. Vogt does not seem to deal well with other teams physicality.

To me, it’s the physicality and just learning how to deal with that and double teams. We played a hard non conference schedule. Every team had size. He played great the first go round in conference. The second time teams seen him, it’s been bad. He has to get more physical and learn to pass out of the double. He has been passing better recently. He also can’t be asked to play the whole game. That makes him even worst because he’s scared to foul.

[cincyguy13]

Originally Posted by skyblade

In the second half, we honestly looked like we might be a better team without Jarron at 75% - or whatever % he's been at when injured.

I'd be okay with sitting Jarron next game and maybe even the first game of the conference tournament. Win the games we should win without him. Try to rest him up for the last pair of conference games and the NCAA tournament. If/when he does play I'd either have a minutes limit on him or only give him 5ish minutes in the first half and then play him in the second.

All indicates are that he's not going to be 100% any time this season. It's just a matter of getting what quality minutes we can out of him, when we most need them.

I have no idea if sitting him would help. But it would be almost 2 weeks of healing. I would take an 80% jarron if he could get there. The last month he’s been a shell of himself.

[cincyguy13]

Originally Posted by skyblade

I continue to submit that Vogt lost us as many games (or more) than he won for us, even early in the season.

He was at least arguably doing more good than harm when he was scoring. Now he is borderline unplayable with his defense and lack of scoring.

The difference between the defensive abilities of Vogt and Diarra is huge. When Vogt is in we double Vogt's man, collapse more guys to the paint to provide help and have trouble stopping the drive. With Diarra in we don't need to double, Diarra cuts off drives before they even start and provides good help defense in the paint (though he is still learning when to go for the block and when he should back-off and box-out).

Diarra is averaging only 1.3 fewer points in conference than Vogt, rebounds better, defends better and can stretch the floor by shooting threes. Yes, he is more mistake prone, but we've seen that if he's given time and a chance to play through the mistakes, he is a better player than Vogt (and has way more potential).

Vogt did more than you claim. He got teams in foul trouble, drew a ton on attention and scored. Those things helped. As much as you don’t want to admit it. Teams figure players out and they have to adjust. That’s common. I don’t think Vogt is completely done being productive.

[skyblade]

Originally Posted by cincrulz11

I'm sure Brannen would have no problem playing Diarra more if Diarra was consistent at all.


Also there are matchups that aren't good for Diarra. USF was a great one for him.

Diarra's best games have come against Wichita State and USF. Both teams with big men who have significant height/weight advantages on him. He is able to use his mobility and athleticism to make up the difference.

Anyone who is going to give Diarra matchup issues will also give Vogt problems.

Diarra also presents more matchup problems of his own on the offensive end. He shoots it from 3 well enough that teams have to guard him. Being able to pull the other teams big away from the basket provides more driving lanes and rebounding opportunities.