Game Thread: UC vs (18)OSU 11/6/2019

[cincrulz11]

Originally Posted by skyblade

They didn't exactly neutralize him though. We doubled him on every touch in the post and then had Sorolla/Vogt follow him everywhere on defense. That left the lane open because our rim protector was standing at the three point line face guarding Wesson. Scott tried to take on the help defender/rim protector role that we didn't have a center filling, but he didn't do very well at it.

The center is generally a rim protector and last line of defense. If Vogt/Sorolla can be pulled away from the basket like they were against OSU, there are going to be a lot of driving lanes available against us on defense (not to mention, Vogt will continue to rack up the fouls). We will see against Drake, as every player they play can shoot threes.

have you seen games where lesser teams try to double bigs like that and get destroyed by them anyway? If Vogt/Sorolla were awful Wesson would have had his way on Wednesday night.

Brooks was not exactly shutting good bigs down by himself.

[cincyguy13]

Originally Posted by skyblade

The board used to have a meltdown after every loss. Justin is a little overboard, but some criticism is valid. Infinite positivity is almost as bad as the meltdowns.

Last year, the team looked like they would have won had Jarron played more minutes. They also played better in the second half.

This year, Jarron played the whole game, but wasn't as involved as we are used to. We lost the second half badly and even though it was close, a comeback seemed unlikely.

Brannen needs to be successful this year, because next year is going to be a down year - we will be very young. Cronin was given extra time because he walked into a mess. Brannen walked into a great team, but was unable to keep them all together.

He did have the opportunity to get replacements though and also kept 3 of the core 4. Even without Brooks, I am positive Cronin would have taken this team to the NCAA tournament (with Diarra/Nsoseme at center and a lot of isoball featuring Jarron). If we fail to make the NCAA tournament this year, I think it is very valid to question Brannen.

But for the first game of the season, it's too early. Like it was too early last after the OSU loss and many said we weren't an NCAA team.

We played a tough team and didn't look very good. But it's early in the season and we have plenty of room to improve. I'm waiting to see how we look when conference play starts before I make too many judgements.

Though I do think we need to start playing small ball. Our 7-footers (especially Sorolla) are not high-major level players.

A comeback seemed unlikely? We played terrible but literally could have been within a point with 2 minutes left if Jaevin makes a wide open 3. I don’t think either team played well but it’s not like it was a blowout.

[skyblade]

Originally Posted by sedziobs

I think our bigs are going to fit in very well on this team. We have completely overhauled our style of play, and we can't evaluate players on the old system. On offense we went from running iso sets and high ball screen sets to 5 out motion and pick-n-roll motion. On defense we went from switching man and double teaming the post to straight man and double teaming the corners. With the new system, we need bigs who can pass on the perimeter and stand ground in the paint without help. We often use our 5 at the top of the key to reverse the ball or hit a back door cut. Sorolla and Vogt seem much more suited to that role than Brooks. Scott seems very lost in the new system, but there's still a lot of time to learn it.

A big man at the 5 is important in the new system. Before watching any games I thought we would play a lot of small lineups, but after finally seeing Brannen's system in action, I would guess we'll almost always have a big on the floor. Unfortunately they're both very foul prone though.

Going forward with recruiting, we won't necessarily need an elite 5. We just need a big body who can pass. We went from a team modeled on the Blazers and Lakers to a team modeled on the Raptors and Celtics. We need Marc Gasol and Al Horford type centers rather than Hassan Whiteside and Dwight Howard. That's a major difference.

I don't think we need an elite big, though I do think an elite big would be nice to have. In college basketball, elite bigs are the hardest players to get and thus the most valuable. A big can impact the game in a way a guard can't.

I still don't think Vogt/Sorolla are a very good fit though. For a big to provide value playing outside the arc, he really needs to be able to shoot the 3. Otherwise, the other teams center can just back off and clog cutting/driving lanes. Vogt/Sorolla made a couple nice passes from outside the arc, but for the most part they were pretty useless out there. They also had a couple of TO's as well when handling outside the arc.

I'd think having Scott (or Diarra if he can figure it out) play the role Vogt/Sorolla were playing would provide a lot more value. He can shoot the three and also has the athleticism/speed to get to the hoop on pick-and-rolls.

[waterhead]

Originally Posted by cincyguy13

A comeback seemed unlikely? We played terrible but literally could have been within a point with 2 minutes left if Jaevin makes a wide open 3. I don’t think either team played well but it’s not like it was a blowout.

Jaevin made a nice pump fake but ended up I think just a little off balance. He had to shoot it but I think he makes his set shots more often than not. He had one off balance 3 that went in from the corner. he shot one ill advised 3 from far too deep. He shot one 3 on the move deep probably not going to be highly successful. He made his set shots against TMC.

He also made a nice floater that ended in a charge so he's got limited play making ability. He WILL make his set shots and he CAN make some higher degree of difficulty shots if he doesn't have much choice.

Keith tried one that was just a little off balance too. They just have to realize when they are set to take a shot and when not to opt out if time is left on the clock. Jarron took a couple of ill advised 3's that had Brannen shaking his head. The point of his offense is to take almost EVERY good opportunity that presents itself and not to force the others. The tape will come in handy and I think we start to learn more as we get more tape.

[waterhead]

Originally Posted by skyblade

I don't think we need an elite big, though I do think an elite big would be nice to have. In college basketball, elite bigs are the hardest players to get and thus the most valuable. A big can impact the game in a way a guard can't.

I still don't think Vogt/Sorolla are a very good fit though. For a big to provide value playing outside the arc, he really needs to be able to shoot the 3. Otherwise, the other teams center can just back off and clog cutting/driving lanes. Vogt/Sorolla made a couple nice passes from outside the arc, but for the most part they were pretty useless out there. They also had a couple of TO's as well when handling outside the arc.

I'd think having Scott (or Diarra if he can figure it out) play the role Vogt/Sorolla were playing would provide a lot more value. He can shoot the three and also has the athleticism/speed to get to the hoop on pick-and-rolls.

Agreed Scott is almost perfect for the top of key passing. He can turn and shoot if needed or he can roll to the basket and is a lot more mobile than the 7 footers. I would much rather have him roll than put the ball on the floor. He's got very nice athleticism but limited ball skills. I just don't know where you put the other big on the court? In the corner? A defense will just leave them out there. We would almost need to play small for Scott to be at the top of the key passing. Otherwise he is one of the other options to shoot

[cincrulz11]

Originally Posted by waterhead

Agreed Scott is almost perfect for the top of key passing. He can turn and shoot if needed or he can roll to the basket and is a lot more mobile than the 7 footers. I would much rather have him roll than put the ball on the floor. He's got very nice athleticism but limited ball skills. I just don't know where you put the other big on the court? In the corner? A defense will just leave them out there. We would almost need to play small for Scott to be at the top of the key passing. Otherwise he is one of the other options to shoot

Scott can't shoot and he's not a thick boi for setting screens. Probably why brannon doesn't use him like that. The size of the 7 footers really forces that help to hedge hard. Thats how we got multiple lay ins.


I'd be fine with Scott taking some 3's if he looked confident in doing so, but man, he looks so timid every time he's open. Never gonna make them like that. I said it before and I'll say it again, I was really surprised to see him like that in the exhibition. I thought he had put in a ton of work in the offseason and was going to come in super confident.

[skyblade]

Originally Posted by waterhead

Agreed Scott is almost perfect for the top of key passing. He can turn and shoot if needed or he can roll to the basket and is a lot more mobile than the 7 footers. I would much rather have him roll than put the ball on the floor. He's got very nice athleticism but limited ball skills. I just don't know where you put the other big on the court? In the corner? A defense will just leave them out there. We would almost need to play small for Scott to be at the top of the key passing. Otherwise he is one of the other options to shoot

Agreed, Scott seems much more suited to playing the top of the key then Vogt/Sorolla and also much more suited to that role than the role he was playing last night. But it would only work if Vogt/Sorolla were out of the game, otherwise you are basically playing 4v5 on offense.

I know I wasn't a fan of playing small a couple weeks ago, but after seeing us be much better small in the exhibition and having Vogt/Sorolla not impress vs OSU (though Vogt was better than I expected minus the fouls) I think small is the way to go. It's possible playing small is the plan and OSU having Wesson forced our hand. We will see against Drake, their 7-footer is someone Scott should be able to handle and when they go small we may be forced to play small anyway. I'm hoping to see a lot of Scott, some Diarra and not very much Vogt/Sorolla against Drake.

The biggest issue with playing small may be our lack of depth. We need Moore to to healthy and/or some of the freshman guards to play well.

[skyblade]

Originally Posted by cincrulz11

Scott can't shoot and he's not a thick boi for setting screens. Probably why brannon doesn't use him like that. The size of the 7 footers really forces that help to hedge hard. Thats how we got multiple lay ins.


I'd be fine with Scott taking some 3's if he looked confident in doing so, but man, he looks so timid every time he's open. Never gonna make them like that. I said it before and I'll say it again, I was really surprised to see him like that in the exhibition. I thought he had put in a ton of work in the offseason and was going to come in super confident.

Supposedly Scott has shot well in practice. He also was shooting pretty well at the end of last season. His biggest issue seems to be too much confidence, shooting threes when he is off-balance, rather than catch and shoot threes where he has his feet set. He doesn't need to be a huge threat to shoot threes, he just has to shoot well enough to keep the other teams big honest.

Scott was used to set screens plenty last year and he did fine. And Vogt/Sorolla don't screen that much anyway, Brannen's offense has them cut to the basket more often than they actually set the screen. Cronin's offense was more screen heavy and Scott was pretty regularly used to set them.

[waterhead]

Originally Posted by cincrulz11

Scott can't shoot and he's not a thick boi for setting screens. Probably why brannon doesn't use him like that. The size of the 7 footers really forces that help to hedge hard. Thats how we got multiple lay ins.


I'd be fine with Scott taking some 3's if he looked confident in doing so, but man, he looks so timid every time he's open. Never gonna make them like that. I said it before and I'll say it again, I was really surprised to see him like that in the exhibition. I thought he had put in a ton of work in the offseason and was going to come in super confident.

Yah I get the confidence issue and I agree. But Scott can shoot at least 30% with low volume as he did last year. Moving the line back doesn't help his chances. He's definitely not a shooter but neither of the other bigs will even put a shot up out there. I don't think he needs to be 260lbs to set a good screen. I just hope the line moving back doesn't completely screw up Scott's psyche. Brannen will get that smoothed over.

[waterhead]

Originally Posted by skyblade

Agreed, Scott seems much more suited to playing the top of the key then Vogt/Sorolla and also much more suited to that role than the role he was playing last night. But it would only work if Vogt/Sorolla were out of the game, otherwise you are basically playing 4v5 on offense.

I know I wasn't a fan of playing small a couple weeks ago, but after seeing us be much better small in the exhibition and having Vogt/Sorolla not impress vs OSU (though Vogt was better than I expected minus the fouls) I think small is the way to go. It's possible playing small is the plan and OSU having Wesson forced our hand. We will see against Drake, their 7-footer is someone Scott should be able to handle and when they go small we may be forced to play small anyway. I'm hoping to see a lot of Scott, some Diarra and not very much Vogt/Sorolla against Drake.

The biggest issue with playing small may be our lack of depth. We need Moore to to healthy and/or some of the freshman guards to play well.

I think OSU forced our hand. I am not worried about wing/guard depth over time. Harvey and Moore and Harvey or Moore will probably be fine. If not we have 3 VERY good options anyway. MAW may be feasible at some point. I actually think Davenport may have seen one of his most optimal opportunities against OSU. He's not playing wing and it may depend on Diara if he gets more chances like that.