Temple Part II

[TheLivingLegend]

Outside of David and Vik... Not sure it matters who leaves.. actually I don't mind Ody either.

[skyblade]

I see a lot more potential in guys than a lot of people seem to. I also think Miller's system requires veteran players who are familiar with his system.

He wants to give his players a lot of independence on the court, but that requires guys who know his system and it requires a guys who can be the coach on the court. Pretty much nobody on the court was with Miller last year, which makes it a lot harder to run a system where guys have freedom.

Forcing a bunch of guys out is only going to repeat the exact same problem next year. Miller needs guys who have been with him multiple years.

We have quite a few capable players who just need time and experience. What we don't have is guys who play within and trust in the system. Look at the lack of ball movement on offense and lack of communication on defense. Especially lately, we have guys who don't trust or work with their teammates.

Cronin or Huggins would likely have some mass benching's and put in whatever backup or walk-on does their job. Miller seems to take the approach of letting guys play it out on the court and then trying to get the message through post-game and in practice. Again he also doesn't have the guys who have been with him long enough to do things the right way.

Mason is second on the team in On-Off Margin, he's been solid. MAW leads the team in On-Off Margin and a number of other categories. Vik and Ody have both shown a lot of potential, but they need polishing (especially on the defensive end). Hensley has 4-star athleticism and will probably be better once he starts playing out of position at SF and plays PF.

I don't believe we need mass turnover, in fact I think mass turnover would just put us in this same position next year. We've got the core for a solid team next year and have some very nice additions coming in with Skillings/Reed/Tolentino. Miller is rebuilding and implementing his own system, expecting that to happen in 6 months was/is completely unrealistic.

He gets a minimum 3 years barring a Brannen like disaster. Let's wait and see what he can do with a full off-season and with guys who stay in his system for multiple years.

[Bcatfollower]

Originally Posted by skyblade

I see a lot more potential in guys than a lot of people seem to. I also think Miller's system requires veteran players who are familiar with his system.

He wants to give his players a lot of independence on the court, but that requires guys who know his system and it requires a guys who can be the coach on the court. Pretty much nobody on the court was with Miller last year, which makes it a lot harder to run a system where guys have freedom.

Forcing a bunch of guys out is only going to repeat the exact same problem next year. Miller needs guys who have been with him multiple years.

We have quite a few capable players who just need time and experience. What we don't have is guys who play within and trust in the system. Look at the lack of ball movement on offense and lack of communication on defense. Especially lately, we have guys who don't trust or work with their teammates.

Cronin or Huggins would likely have some mass benching's and put in whatever backup or walk-on does their job. Miller seems to take the approach of letting guys play it out on the court and then trying to get the message through post-game and in practice. Again he also doesn't have the guys who have been with him long enough to do things the right way.

Mason is second on the team in On-Off Margin, he's been solid. MAW leads the team in On-Off Margin and a number of other categories. Vik and Ody have both shown a lot of potential, but they need polishing (especially on the defensive end). Hensley has 4-star athleticism and will probably be better once he starts playing out of position at SF and plays PF.

I don't believe we need mass turnover, in fact I think mass turnover would just put us in this same position next year. We've got the core for a solid team next year and have some very nice additions coming in with Skillings/Reed/Tolentino. Miller is rebuilding and implementing his own system, expecting that to happen in 6 months was/is completely unrealistic.

He gets a minimum 3 years barring a Brannen like disaster. Let's wait and see what he can do with a full off-season and with guys who stay in his system for multiple years.

I don’t believe Miller should be so hands off on coaching offense that he is ok with the shot selection from guys like Davenport, madsen, maw, and Saunders. As much as I disliked Cronins offense at least he understood his players couldn’t shoot and limited possessions by slowing down. In miller’s case we are playing shit defense and then taking quick poor shots.

[sedziobs]

Originally Posted by skyblade

I see a lot more potential in guys than a lot of people seem to. I also think Miller's system requires veteran players who are familiar with his system.

He wants to give his players a lot of independence on the court, but that requires guys who know his system and it requires a guys who can be the coach on the court. Pretty much nobody on the court was with Miller last year, which makes it a lot harder to run a system where guys have freedom.

Forcing a bunch of guys out is only going to repeat the exact same problem next year. Miller needs guys who have been with him multiple years.

We have quite a few capable players who just need time and experience. What we don't have is guys who play within and trust in the system. Look at the lack of ball movement on offense and lack of communication on defense. Especially lately, we have guys who don't trust or work with their teammates.

Cronin or Huggins would likely have some mass benching's and put in whatever backup or walk-on does their job. Miller seems to take the approach of letting guys play it out on the court and then trying to get the message through post-game and in practice. Again he also doesn't have the guys who have been with him long enough to do things the right way.

Mason is second on the team in On-Off Margin, he's been solid. MAW leads the team in On-Off Margin and a number of other categories. Vik and Ody have both shown a lot of potential, but they need polishing (especially on the defensive end). Hensley has 4-star athleticism and will probably be better once he starts playing out of position at SF and plays PF.

I don't believe we need mass turnover, in fact I think mass turnover would just put us in this same position next year. We've got the core for a solid team next year and have some very nice additions coming in with Skillings/Reed/Tolentino. Miller is rebuilding and implementing his own system, expecting that to happen in 6 months was/is completely unrealistic.

He gets a minimum 3 years barring a Brannen like disaster. Let's wait and see what he can do with a full off-season and with guys who stay in his system for multiple years.

I agree with just about all of this. I know I said last night that we need to wipe the slate clean, but I don't think we should be forcing anyone out. We need a new philosophy. Relying on DDJ iso isn't good offense. Very small guards and slow big men make for an exploitable defense. We'll be smaller and quicker at the 5 next year. We have bigger wings coming in. Hopefully our style looks a lot different.

I don't expect Miller to ever run an efficient offense based on his UNCG career, but we can get better by swapping some pieces. I think Saunders, Mason, Vik, and Hensley have potential because they have shown instincts. They make cuts and look for cutters on offense. Our starting 5 plus Ody & Koval are 1v1 scorers or set shooters and station-to-station passers. The offense should become more fluid just by phasing those guys out, even without a coach implemented scheme.

On defense DDJ and Davenport have been attacked in recent weeks. Teams have figured out they can be iso'd and scored on. Our defensive efficiency has fallen off a cliff in February, and I think that's the main reason why. I think Miller's defensive schemes will be fine when we get better athletes.

[waterhead]

Originally Posted by skyblade

I see a lot more potential in guys than a lot of people seem to. I also think Miller's system requires veteran players who are familiar with his system.

He wants to give his players a lot of independence on the court, but that requires guys who know his system and it requires a guys who can be the coach on the court. Pretty much nobody on the court was with Miller last year, which makes it a lot harder to run a system where guys have freedom.

Forcing a bunch of guys out is only going to repeat the exact same problem next year. Miller needs guys who have been with him multiple years.

We have quite a few capable players who just need time and experience. What we don't have is guys who play within and trust in the system. Look at the lack of ball movement on offense and lack of communication on defense. Especially lately, we have guys who don't trust or work with their teammates.

Cronin or Huggins would likely have some mass benching's and put in whatever backup or walk-on does their job. Miller seems to take the approach of letting guys play it out on the court and then trying to get the message through post-game and in practice. Again he also doesn't have the guys who have been with him long enough to do things the right way.

Mason is second on the team in On-Off Margin, he's been solid. MAW leads the team in On-Off Margin and a number of other categories. Vik and Ody have both shown a lot of potential, but they need polishing (especially on the defensive end). Hensley has 4-star athleticism and will probably be better once he starts playing out of position at SF and plays PF.

I don't believe we need mass turnover, in fact I think mass turnover would just put us in this same position next year. We've got the core for a solid team next year and have some very nice additions coming in with Skillings/Reed/Tolentino. Miller is rebuilding and implementing his own system, expecting that to happen in 6 months was/is completely unrealistic.

He gets a minimum 3 years barring a Brannen like disaster. Let's wait and see what he can do with a full off-season and with guys who stay in his system for multiple years.

I am with you and agree. 2-3 pieces (pending DDJ decision) are all that is needed to field a better team. Especially guys who are recruited for the style of play.

We are playing with limited talent (on at least one side of the ball) with some players that don't even fit. With a little more time to evaluate and recruit talent either in HS or portal this roster can be a LOT different with 5 new players and we know who 3 of them are. I can't believe everyone is going to stick around but if DDJ leaves (I hope he does not) and you open up 2 other spots then you have almost changed half the roster to something more fitting of your style. I would prefer DDJ stays and we just open up 2.

That is a big overhaul right there without scrapping an entire roster. 5-6 new players out of 13. That's about as much as you would want to replace and still hope for some synergy.

[Queens_NYC]

Originally Posted by skyblade

I see a lot more potential in guys than a lot of people seem to. I also think Miller's system requires veteran players who are familiar with his system.

He wants to give his players a lot of independence on the court, but that requires guys who know his system and it requires a guys who can be the coach on the court. Pretty much nobody on the court was with Miller last year, which makes it a lot harder to run a system where guys have freedom.

Forcing a bunch of guys out is only going to repeat the exact same problem next year. Miller needs guys who have been with him multiple years.

We have quite a few capable players who just need time and experience. What we don't have is guys who play within and trust in the system. Look at the lack of ball movement on offense and lack of communication on defense. Especially lately, we have guys who don't trust or work with their teammates.

Cronin or Huggins would likely have some mass benching's and put in whatever backup or walk-on does their job. Miller seems to take the approach of letting guys play it out on the court and then trying to get the message through post-game and in practice. Again he also doesn't have the guys who have been with him long enough to do things the right way.

Mason is second on the team in On-Off Margin, he's been solid. MAW leads the team in On-Off Margin and a number of other categories. Vik and Ody have both shown a lot of potential, but they need polishing (especially on the defensive end). Hensley has 4-star athleticism and will probably be better once he starts playing out of position at SF and plays PF.

I don't believe we need mass turnover, in fact I think mass turnover would just put us in this same position next year. We've got the core for a solid team next year and have some very nice additions coming in with Skillings/Reed/Tolentino. Miller is rebuilding and implementing his own system, expecting that to happen in 6 months was/is completely unrealistic.

He gets a minimum 3 years barring a Brannen like disaster. Let's wait and see what he can do with a full off-season and with guys who stay in his system for multiple years.

Fundamentally, I agree that more roster continuity is generally a good thing for building a program.

I'm not sold on most of these current guys developing into anything better than they are right now (with a few exceptions), but unless some of our major rotation players decide they want a change of scenery next season, we don't really have the open minutes to attract impact transfers at any position other than center.

If Miller can make incremental improvements on both ends of the floor, then I guess we can be a top 60-75/NIT team next season - which is what most of us hoped we'd be this year, but it's clear those expectations were too great.

All I hope is that if Miller's cornerstones are program culture and player development, that he sticks around long enough for us to see everything working on all cylinders for a sustained period of time.

[TheLongHaul]

Originally Posted by UCats329

As much flak as the placeholder guys Wes brought in in MAY 2021 or later, the "core" of this team is Brannen guys, and none of them exactly inspire confidence. Assuming that DeJulius is gone because he will have options, the first candidate that I would tell to get lost, frankly, would be Davenport. He's a defensive liability and a total black hole on offense when he's not nailing a bunch of threes, but he fires away like he's Klay Thompson. Saunders I could take or leave. I would try to retain all of the "effort" guys like Hensley, Newman, MAW, Lakhin, Oguama, Madsen--guys who aren't going anywhere better and at least might be susceptible to being "coached" and will at least mostly play within their limitations. There is clearly still a cultural issue with this team, because yes while the talent level is low and offense sucks due to a lack of post prrsence, a lot of what plagues them could be remedied by effort and getting guys on the same page defensively.

Really? The only players really worth their salt are Brannen guys. The only real contributors are DDJ and Davenport, both Brannen guys. And keep in mind they were both hired late in the process (April) and had to scrounge up recruits. Brannen had no one coming in from Mick's regime and did a pretty damn good job putting together a team. I don't think Wes really came into much worse of a situation.

You have to keep some of the guys, you can't rebuild an entire new roster. Some of these guys would be good role players but they just aren't good enough. Saunders, DDJ, Davenport, Oguama is a decent core if it had some higher level players mixed in.

Hensley, McGinnis, Koval, Newman are all UNCG players that aren't capable at this level. Newman would probably be okay as a off the bench role player but he doesn't do anything really well.

I'm more concerned about the lack of progress and development than the talent pool. Wes should be able to recruit. The incoming class looks pretty good (no idea about Sage, he doesn't look like he'll impress). The question is can he coach the talent? This team doesn't do anything better now than they did the first game of the season and that's troubling. Especially when Wes himself says he likes to just let players play on offense. It definitely shows.

Originally Posted by skyblade

I see a lot more potential in guys than a lot of people seem to. I also think Miller's system requires veteran players who are familiar with his system.

What is his system? Does he have one?

[skyblade]

Originally Posted by TheLongHaul

Really? The only players really worth their salt are Brannen guys. The only real contributors are DDJ and Davenport, both Brannen guys. And keep in mind they were both hired late in the process (April) and had to scrounge up recruits. Brannen had no one coming in from Mick's regime and did a pretty damn good job putting together a team. I don't think Wes really came into much worse of a situation.

You have to keep some of the guys, you can't rebuild an entire new roster. Some of these guys would be good role players but they just aren't good enough. Saunders, DDJ, Davenport, Oguama is a decent core if it had some higher level players mixed in.

Hensley, McGinnis, Koval, Newman are all UNCG players that aren't capable at this level. Newman would probably be okay as a off the bench role player but he doesn't do anything really well.

I'm more concerned about the lack of progress and development than the talent pool. Wes should be able to recruit. The incoming class looks pretty good (no idea about Sage, he doesn't look like he'll impress). The question is can he coach the talent? This team doesn't do anything better now than they did the first game of the season and that's troubling. Especially when Wes himself says he likes to just let players play on offense. It definitely shows.



What is his system? Does he have one?

I posted elsewhere a while back comparing Reed/Skillings to Tari Eason based on their peak/low and current rankings. Essentially rankings wise there's not much difference (I believe Skillings is slightly better and Reed slightly worse). They are excellent recruits, I believe two of the top 5 in the last 5 years.

Sage is more of a developmental project, but pretty much every non one-and-done big man is. Even so I believe he is also in top 5 recruits in the last 5 years based on rankings.

His system on offense appears to be iso-heavy pick-and-roll/pick-and-pop or get it into the paint and let the big work. Very similar to what Cronin liked/likes to run. The problem is that it works much better when you've got a skilled 6'6" guy (hopefully will be Skillings/Reed) who can shoot it, see/pass over the heads of the defense or score in the paint. We try to run it with DDJ, but he doesn't pass well (though he has been improving somewhat lately) or score in the paint. Doesn't help that none of our bigs (besides Ody and sometimes Vik, but neither of them play defense well) know to to catch a pass and finish at the rim.

On defense it's a straight man-to-man with minimal switching and bigs to defend the basket if a guy does get into the paint. It requires size/athleticism to guard straight up man-to-man, which DDJ, Saunders and Davenport (though he is probably athletic enough to get by with better technique) all lack.

I believe he also wants to run and press. But (and he has talked about this) he hasn't had the time to fully implement the pressing system. We also need guards with the size/skill to finish around the rim when we get runouts on offense, which we don't currently have.

[TheLongHaul]

Like I said, Wes should be able to recruit. His recruits in year 1 wasn't good but I can't blame him for that. Likewise I thought Brannen did a hell of a job putting together a solid roster with the limited time. Obviously he couldn't keep them but was able to pull them in.

So Wes' system is basically go let them play and hopefully talent wins out. Seems a lot like Penny's strategy. Wes stresses defense non-stop but I'm not sure what he is actually trying to implement other than telling his players to play "good defense".

Still too early but like I said, I'm concerned. This team should be playing way better than they are.

[waterhead]

Originally Posted by skyblade

I posted elsewhere a while back comparing Reed/Skillings to Tari Eason based on their peak/low and current rankings. Essentially rankings wise there's not much difference (I believe Skillings is slightly better and Reed slightly worse). They are excellent recruits, I believe two of the top 5 in the last 5 years.

Sage is more of a developmental project, but pretty much every non one-and-done big man is. Even so I believe he is also in top 5 recruits in the last 5 years based on rankings.

His system on offense appears to be iso-heavy pick-and-roll/pick-and-pop or get it into the paint and let the big work. Very similar to what Cronin liked/likes to run. The problem is that it works much better when you've got a skilled 6'6" guy (hopefully will be Skillings/Reed) who can shoot it, see/pass over the heads of the defense or score in the paint. We try to run it with DDJ, but he doesn't pass well (though he has been improving somewhat lately) or score in the paint. Doesn't help that none of our bigs (besides Ody and sometimes Vik, but neither of them play defense well) know to to catch a pass and finish at the rim.

On defense it's a straight man-to-man with minimal switching and bigs to defend the basket if a guy does get into the paint. It requires size/athleticism to guard straight up man-to-man, which DDJ, Saunders and Davenport (though he is probably athletic enough to get by with better technique) all lack.

I believe he also wants to run and press. But (and he has talked about this) he hasn't had the time to fully implement the pressing system. We also need guards with the size/skill to finish around the rim when we get runouts on offense, which we don't currently have.

It's hard to implement that run, trap, press style when you have a 6'0" two guard in DDJ and half the time another one to boot in MIke at PG. But if you throw MAW out there (for one more year) at point and DDJ happens to leave you can replace him with a portal guy with some scoring capability and some length. With the addition of Reed and Skillings as frosh and Newman as more of a defensive role player than a 30 minute guy, and a tallish/lengthy portal wing who can score a bit...we can run what Wes wants to run more effectively.

Having your best two offensive players (and high minute getters) as somewhat misfits in the system is not optimal. Having 1 is okay. I don't think JD is going anywhere...DDJ might opt to make some bucks. Although I would rather DDJ return as a PG I am resigned to being okay with him leaving if he remains a 2. Gotta look forward to B12 play and start playing your system next year IMO. I will be okay with 2 down years for long term gains.