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Old 02-21-2020, 09:29 AM   #251
cincrulz11
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Originally Posted by cincyguy13 View Post
I think others question it. I did not but others have been questioning the defensive strategy even in those games. Losing games is always going to bring up questions. Winning games is always going to mask those question. We haven’t played well for 4-5 games and our season is basically over. Questions are going to come up
sure they are but nothing changes this basic fact.


when jarron is healthy and playing well, we play well.


when he's not, we struggle a great deal.
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Old 02-21-2020, 05:45 PM   #252
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Look, I'm rooting for Diarra, and he has had a few games where he looked promising but he was horrid last night on both ends of the floor and sucked the life right out of the game when he was in. His errors completely changed the game in the first half.

Vogt wasn't good defending the ball last night but frankly he was better than Scott. Trevon reverted back to his earlier days trying to defend the white dude from OSU and X. He got blown by on just about every possession.

Granted, I do completely agree that Brannen should have switched to a zone. No idea why he didn't. I'm really high on Brannen, but that was a big mistake.
Just a quick back of the envelope calculation, so it may be slightly wrong. When Diarra was in the game in the first half, he was +6. Vogt in the first half was +1. I know +/- isn't the greatest measure, but it's a pretty common theme with Diarra. Even when he looks bad, he still ends up with a positive +/- because of his impact of defense and on the boards (with the exception of the UConn game, where he was just straight up terrible). He still has a long way to go obviously, but he generally isn't the liability that many make him out to be.
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Old 02-21-2020, 07:15 PM   #253
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Just a quick back of the envelope calculation, so it may be slightly wrong. When Diarra was in the game in the first half, he was +6. Vogt in the first half was +1. I know +/- isn't the greatest measure, but it's a pretty common theme with Diarra. Even when he looks bad, he still ends up with a positive +/- because of his impact of defense and on the boards (with the exception of the UConn game, where he was just straight up terrible). He still has a long way to go obviously, but he generally isn't the liability that many make him out to be.
His defense against UCF was HORRID. You add that to his complete inability to do anything right on offense and he doesn't deserve playing time. Your bias is hilarious. I wish Diarra was a stud, and he seems like a fantastic dude. But he is still out of his element when playing D1 ball. Hopefully that changes by next year.
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Old 02-21-2020, 07:18 PM   #254
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Originally Posted by cincyguy13 View Post
I think others question it. I did not but others have been questioning the defensive strategy even in those games. Losing games is always going to bring up questions. Winning games is always going to mask those question. We haven’t played well for 4-5 games and our season is basically over. Questions are going to come up
That's how it's always going to be....this team played their 4th OT game in a row, including the last one that was double OT. That's insane. Considering this is not a deep team, and while they are more talented than UCF, they aren't talented enough to overcome it.
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Old 02-21-2020, 07:22 PM   #255
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Keith is amazing at one thing. Jumping. He should be an elite lock down defender but is not...he can be. He can fly to the rack but shows little judgement in doing so too often. Jarron Cumberland does a lot more with a lot less athleticism. Because he has more BB IQ. He understands how to get defenders off balance and take advantage of that...and he can shoot. If Gabe Madsen can do all the things Keith can do and shows higher BB IQ, better shooting etc...but lacks a little pop in his step...I will take that every day. SK was another limited athlete who just knew how to play the game. He nor Jarron had killer ball skills or could jump very high.

I love Keith and I would not trade him out...but elite hops only get you so far if you don't understand how to control your drives to the lane. He doesn't have an ankle breaker cross over...his one move is a straight line to the base line which is only open a fraction of the time because that is where the D is okay with him going. He uses the occasional step back but too often it's for a long 2 instead of a 3 or a short range 2.

In Keiths 3rd year he is still only the 3rd or 4th option on the team. Next year will likely be different but Jarron was POY in his junior year. Jarron can barely dunk a BB at 6'5". A slow mid major backup transfer center became the 2nd option. Tre has been making a solid case for 3rd option.

We can feature Keith next year but I am not sure how consistent he will be. I hope he kills it and gets to go to the league!
well said, completely agree! For as good of jumping ability that he has, it rarely comes across in games. He is way too weak and ends up getting blocked or having to double clutch ending in bad shots. Also agree that his defense leaves a lot to be desired. He should be good next year but I'll be shocked if he ends up a star player. Hope I'm wrong.
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Old 02-21-2020, 07:33 PM   #256
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Originally Posted by cincyguy13 View Post
I think others question it. I did not but others have been questioning the defensive strategy even in those games. Losing games is always going to bring up questions. Winning games is always going to mask those question. We haven’t played well for 4-5 games and our season is basically over. Questions are going to come up
Yup, I have been questioning our defense pretty much all season and I'm not the only one. Mostly because of Vogt. Vogt just lacks the mobility to play man-to-man if the other teams big man can shoot. Put him in the center of a zone and it masks a lot of his flaws.

We have seen the same formula beat us in numerous games all season. Pull Vogt away from the basket and put him in pick and rolls. Then drive to the basket and with Vogt on the perimeter our interior help defense and rim protection is basically non-existent.
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Old 02-21-2020, 07:52 PM   #257
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Originally Posted by skyblade View Post
Yup, I have been questioning our defense pretty much all season and I'm not the only one. Mostly because of Vogt. Vogt just lacks the mobility to play man-to-man if the other teams big man can shoot. Put him in the center of a zone and it masks a lot of his flaws.

We have seen the same formula beat us in numerous games all season. Pull Vogt away from the basket and put him in pick and rolls. Then drive to the basket and with Vogt on the perimeter our interior help defense and rim protection is basically non-existent.
you realize UCF was doing that against Scott right? Which led to multiple layups including the game typing one (either in regulation or OT, can't remember). Scott has been a poor perimeter defender all year as well. Funny you never mention it though.
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Old 02-21-2020, 08:00 PM   #258
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Originally Posted by TheLongHaul View Post
you realize UCF was doing that against Scott right? Which led to multiple layups including the game typing one (either in regulation or OT, can't remember). Scott has been a poor perimeter defender all year as well. Funny you never mention it though.
Scott had a bad game on defense, but he has been our best defender on the season (though Diarra was better early in the year). He also scored 22 points and grabbed 21 rebounds while playing 40+ minutes for the fourth consecutive game. I'll give him a pass for having one bad defensive game.

Vogt has been bad defensively all season. He is probably one of the worst perimeter defenders in the country. He also happens to be very bad at rebounding in conference play. And he scored 7 points against UCF while grabbing only 6 rebounds.
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Old 02-21-2020, 09:00 PM   #259
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Originally Posted by skyblade View Post
Scott had a bad game on defense, but he has been our best defender on the season (though Diarra was better early in the year). He also scored 22 points and grabbed 21 rebounds while playing 40+ minutes for the fourth consecutive game. I'll give him a pass for having one bad defensive game.

Vogt has been bad defensively all season. He is probably one of the worst perimeter defenders in the country. He also happens to be very bad at rebounding in conference play. And he scored 7 points against UCF while grabbing only 6 rebounds.
Oh Skyblade, you are definitely something else. Even though Scott's defense hasn't been great all year, to say Diarra's was ever better is shocking even coming from you.

While Scott is the better rebounder, it isn't the margin you suggest. For once, just watch the game and see how well Vogt blocks out his man and watch Scott come get the rebound. Half of Scott's rebounds are either off of FT's or when Vogt has his guy sealed and Scott goes and gets it. In fact, Scott is barely averaging more offensive rebounds than Vogt, and that is while Vogt is a focal point on offense. Per 40 (a metric you love to cite) I'd guess Vogt is actually even if not better than Scott. But this isn't to diss Scott, he has been playing very well lately (except on defense) and giving it his all. It's just to point out your blatant bias to Vogt and anything related to Brannen.
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Old 02-21-2020, 10:11 PM   #260
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Tre Scott was bad in isolation on Wednesday but again, it was because our system of face guarding allowed ucf to pull our entire team fro
The rim and then iso each player .

Tre has an excellent defensive rating in synergy 0.63 ppp allowed
Diarra has been slightly better though in far less possessions at .60 ppp allowed. Only 5% of defenders in the country are better then Diarra

Vogt has actually improved but still listed as below average. He has allowed . 97 ppp which is worse then 85% of the nation


Keith is listed as an average defender allowing .86 ppp... my guess is partly due to poor basketball iQ

Jarron grades out as Very Good allowing .78 ppp

MAW is also average

Jaevin has improved big time and is now Very Good as well


It is sad that Jarron Cumberland is basically our best perimeter defender.
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