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Old 12-23-2017, 12:33 AM   #11
jacobkdoyle
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Originally Posted by justinhub2003 View Post
Alright guys. Let’s just cut Keith Williams from the team. Yank his scholarship because Bearcat nation gave up on a kid after 11 games in his freshman year. Wait... who’s the pessimist ?

Never mind that team who beat us in the shoot out has a PG who is shooting 5% from 3 on the year and yet finds a way to be effective.

Keith will never be a great shooter but he sure ain’t as bad as he is shooting now. I love how every one wanted a player who get to the rim just 2 years ago and now, we have him and we want a shooter instead. Strange
I gave him a C-. That grade is based on 13 games. In those 13 games, as a guard, he has shot 12.5% from 3 and 35.7% from the line. That is not a B+ to me.

I don't ever want a 1, 2, or 3 (or even 4 these days) who can't shoot. That's not new. We've had a lot of that in the past and it doesn't work. Obviously Williams is going to be around and part of what we do, so we just have to hope he shoots better. But to this point, it has been really bad. Sorry if that upsets you. But it's true. Notice I didn't give him an F, or even a D. He does other things well, and I gave him credit for that. But a guard with those shooting numbers isn't getting a good grade from me, much less a B+.
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Old 12-23-2017, 06:00 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justinhub2003 View Post
Alright guys. Let’s just cut Keith Williams from the team. Yank his scholarship because Bearcat nation gave up on a kid after 11 games in his freshman year. Wait... who’s the pessimist ?

Never mind that team who beat us in the shoot out has a PG who is shooting 5% from 3 on the year and yet finds a way to be effective.

Keith will never be a great shooter but he sure ain’t as bad as he is shooting now. I love how every one wanted a player who get to the rim just 2 years ago and now, we have him and we want a shooter instead. Strange
People are so sensitive on this board. If you don’t say everyone is perfect or actual think the team isn’t perfect people act like you hate the team. Saying he isn’t a good shooter is not trashing the kid. It’s not saying he won’t be a good player or good shooter in the future.
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Old 12-23-2017, 06:49 AM   #13
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Jacob....give Williams a break! He started off 1-10 from 3 and 1-8 from the line. He's only a freshman. High energy is hard to control. As he gets more comfortable, his % will steadily rise. He takes it to the rim easier than any player on this team. Merry Xmas to all.

Go Bearcats!
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Old 12-23-2017, 07:45 AM   #14
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Jacob....give Williams a break! He started off 1-10 from 3 and 1-8 from the line. He's only a freshman. High energy is hard to control. As he gets more comfortable, his % will steadily rise. He takes it to the rim easier than any player on this team. Merry Xmas to all.

Go Bearcats!
I think cumberland takes it to the rim better and normally has a outside shot that defenders need to respect making his pump fake better.
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Old 12-23-2017, 09:36 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by NYCAT View Post
Jacob....give Williams a break! He started off 1-10 from 3 and 1-8 from the line. He's only a freshman. High energy is hard to control. As he gets more comfortable, his % will steadily rise. He takes it to the rim easier than any player on this team. Merry Xmas to all.

Go Bearcats!
I'm just grading him on what happened the first 13 games. Those numbers you referenced are part of that. And so is the 1-6 from 3 after the 1-10 start (not even sure how you divide that up tbh). To this point, he has shot as poorly as any guard I've ever seen play at UC. And I really think they need to have him change his mechanics sooner than later. Letting him do what's comfortable over his career to the tune of abysmal shooting numbers sounds terrifying. We've had plenty of bad shooters before, I don't recall any of their shots fixing themselves without change. Hell it's been hard enough to try to fix some of these shots with change being taught. Either way, he's got a long way to go if he wants to be a standout D1 player on a good team.

Last edited by jacobkdoyle; 12-23-2017 at 09:39 AM.
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Old 12-23-2017, 10:40 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by justinhub2003 View Post
I don’t think Williams will be a career 15% shooter from 3.

In fact, I think he can be a 30% shooter and for a guy with his driving ability, that’s all he needs. Currently his role is not to be a shooter. His role is to defend and break down defenses with drives at the rim. He is one of our better players at getting to the rim.

And I think Cronin has used both him and Moore correctly by playing which style of scoring we need.

I’m not at all unhappy with Keith. He is already better than a guy like Shaq Thomas.
I'm with Hub on Williams. We have had plenty of players on the wing in the past could not shoot or drive. I would take 30 percent from a player who gets to the rim that often.

KJ could not shoot or drive. Dixon was sub 30 percent for his career. Sanders played a lot of minutes for us and wasn't good at either one.
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Old 12-23-2017, 10:40 AM   #17
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I have no doubt that Keith will come on strong. I don't think his mechanics are all that bad and he will continue to get minutes because he is the best on the team in the full-court press. IMO as always. Go Keith throw up 15 points in the next game and quiet this thread.
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Old 12-23-2017, 11:13 AM   #18
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I have no doubt that Keith will come on strong. I don't think his mechanics are all that bad and he will continue to get minutes because he is the best on the team in the full-court press. IMO as always. Go Keith throw up 15 points in the next game and quiet this thread.
I'm sorry for pointing out stats that are so uncomfortable for some. It's not like I'm anti-Williams. I hope he's the next Dwayne Wade. I mean, quiet this thread? Smh. Seriously? If he has 15, I'll be cheering as loudly as anyone. But that doesn't mean he has shot the ball well to this point. And I'm pretty sure this entire thread is meant to grade that, along with everything else. If we can't be critical of a guy shooting 12.5% from 3 and 35.7% from FT line, then what's the point of any of this? Why not just give every player an A+ no matter what and call it a day?
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Old 12-23-2017, 11:29 AM   #19
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I'm with Hub on Williams. We have had plenty of players on the wing in the past could not shoot or drive. I would take 30 percent from a player who gets to the rim that often.

KJ could not shoot or drive. Dixon was sub 30 percent for his career. Sanders played a lot of minutes for us and wasn't good at either one.
Gross. 30% 3 point shooting from a guard you want to be a leading/double figure scorer is awful. How far are we going to get with that? I don't get it. The guy is a FR. Why not work on fixing it over the next 3 years and hope for better than 30%? If Evans and Cumberland are still around next year, he won't be expected to do a ton more than he does now. So that's 2 years to work on a better shooting form that can yield better results. Why would anyone be against that? It's so weird to me. This feels like the Gary Clark thing all over again. So many people argued after his FR year that we should just bulk him up to 250, have him play in the post, and maybe work out to 15 feet by his SR year. Then he could go overseas. I was treated like a lunatic for daring to suggest that he expand his game sooner, and out to the 3 pt line. Well look at him now. Where would we be had he not put the work in to be more than what he was already good at? Now he's an NBA prospect and we're a Top 15 team, mostly bc of him. If you want Williams to be a guy like that for UC some day, why resist developing him into a player who can actually be that? It's called player development. The whole point for us is that we are a 4 year program. Guys don't come in here as finished products. Williams is not a finished product. His shooting is holding him back. It always will if it isn't addressed. If our coaches take his shooting this year, shrug their shoulders, and let him ride out his next 3 years shooting the same way and hoping for 30%, then they aren't doing their jobs. Plain and simple. I'll bet money that we hear a lot this offseason about Williams working on his shot. It would be stupid of him not to. He has the length, athleticism, finishing ability, and will be an elite wing defender. That's big. And he can be a good player by just doing that. But accepting 30% as the ceiling of his 3 pt shooting during his FR year is insane to me. And maybe that's what he ends up being. Maybe he just can't shoot, maybe he reverts back to old form in games, I dunno. But what I do know is that it'd be silly to let him go through the rest of his career without addressing an Achilles heel. We develop players over 4 years here. It's not too late to help him be the best player he can be. But just rolling with the status quo for 4 years doesn't make any sense to me. And bringing up Sanders and KJ, someone bringing up Shaq Thomas yesterday...really? Shouldn't that set off alarm bells for you? No offense to those guys, but they weren't great players. Williams still can be. But not the way he shoots it now. His floor is a Shaq Thomas type. He can hit that floor whether he works on his shooting form or not. But he can hit a higher ceiling if he takes the next 3 years to work his ass off on a shoot with a cleaner looking release. It's not even the biggest deal on earth bc it's his off hand that is out of whack. His rotation still seems ok.

Really confused why any of this would be met with such strong resistance. I want Keith Williams to be as good a player as he can possibly be. Period. I want our team to be as good as we can possibly be. Period. I just don't see us being as good as we can possibly be down the road, if Williams doesn't make more progress than 30% as a 3 pt shooter.
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Old 12-23-2017, 12:07 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justinhub2003 View Post
Alright guys. Let’s just cut Keith Williams from the team. Yank his scholarship because Bearcat nation gave up on a kid after 11 games in his freshman year. Wait... who’s the pessimist ?

Never mind that team who beat us in the shoot out has a PG who is shooting 5% from 3 on the year and yet finds a way to be effective.

Keith will never be a great shooter but he sure ain’t as bad as he is shooting now. I love how every one wanted a player who get to the rim just 2 years ago and now, we have him and we want a shooter instead. Strange
If Williams plays PG with shooters around him everywhere, then I'll live with it. But he was sold as a wing who could be our best player someday.

I'll just say this...if you're fine setting the bar for Williams at 30% 3 pt shooting, you should be screaming that every recruit we land for the next 3 years shoots like Trevor Moore. Bc when Clark, Washington, Broome, Evans, and maybe even Cumberland are gone in 2019-20, we will have L Johnson, Williams, Moore, Scott, Brooks, Diarra, and Nsoseme so far. If defenses pack in on any combo of those lineups, how good is Williams going to be at driving? Even LeBron James would struggle for space in a lineup like that.
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