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Old 01-24-2020, 08:52 AM   #111
cincyguy13
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Originally Posted by skyblade View Post
You rather quickly changed the goalposts: you started out saying "You can win with a defense in the top 30."

9 years of one teams NCAA tournament games is a very small sample size. The NCAA tournament is largely random, we see plenty of teams with top offenses and/or top defenses go down early every year. There are some things Cronin could have done better, but the NCAA tournament largely comes down to luck if you aren't an elite team (and there's still luck even if you are). If you aren't a top 4 seed, the first game is often pretty much a toss up.

I think we can all agree that it's important to be excellent on both offense and defense. If you want to have a good shot at advancing deep in the NCAA tournament (and not counting on getting luck) you better be top 20 in both (and ideally top 10 in both). If you are elite (top 3) on one end you can get away with being a little worse on the other.
We all change the goal post. Just like you do with Vogt. It used to be he can’t play at all, to he can’t do it the whole year, to the offense is designed for him. I’ve heard from many college basketball talking heads that offense is more important. Am I too lazy to do research? Yes. But no one has proven that defense is more important either. So I am still not sure what not playing Vogt would accomplish. If you have to be good at both, taking out an elite scorer will make the offense even worse. And offfense that isn’t as good as the defense. I’m pretty sure,

Last edited by cincyguy13; 01-24-2020 at 08:54 AM.
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Old 01-24-2020, 09:03 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by skyblade View Post
You rather quickly changed the goalposts: you started out saying "You can win with a defense in the top 30."

9 years of one teams NCAA tournament games is a very small sample size. The NCAA tournament is largely random, we see plenty of teams with top offenses and/or top defenses go down early every year. There are some things Cronin could have done better, but the NCAA tournament largely comes down to luck if you aren't an elite team (and there's still luck even if you are). If you aren't a top 4 seed, the first game is often pretty much a toss up.

I think we can all agree that it's important to be excellent on both offense and defense. If you want to have a good shot at advancing deep in the NCAA tournament (and not counting on getting luck) you better be top 20 in both (and ideally top 10 in both). If you are elite (top 3) on one end you can get away with being a little worse on the other.
Also after a while it’s not luck. You’re doing something wrong and not changing it or trying something different is not very smart. Will the new thing work? No clue but I know what hasn’t worked for 9 years. That’s trying to put 5 athletes on the floor and out “toughing” teams. Hoping you can shut down tournament level teams is never going to work consistently. They’re too good.
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Old 01-24-2020, 09:05 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by cincyguy13 View Post
You really believe defense is more important? The one constant we have had has been elite defense over the years. Lost in the first weekend almost every year. Explain that. Was it cronin? You would think if defense was as important as you claim we would have had more success.

9 years is a fairly large sample size.
I believe efficiency is most important, with little regard to whether that efficiency is achieved through offense, defense, pace, toughness, basketball IQ, 3 pt shooting, rebounding, mobile centers, seniors, bench, zone, NBA style, money, tradition, crowds, or anything else you can come up with.

In Cronin's years, we were top 16 in efficiency only once. We went to the Sweet Sixteen once. We lost to a less efficient team three times (Harvard, St Joes, Nevada). We beat one more efficient team (Florida St). We also won two tossup games against a team ranked immediately below us (Texas, Purdue).

Nine years is a tiny sample size. No real conclusions can be drawn from that. For every anecdote like Cincinnati you find to support your point, you can find one to support a different point (like Creighton). There is a ton of random variation in basketball, which is what makes it so exciting. If just a couple games swing the other way, the narrative changes completely.
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Old 01-24-2020, 09:37 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by sedziobs View Post
I believe efficiency is most important, with little regard to whether that efficiency is achieved through offense, defense, pace, toughness, basketball IQ, 3 pt shooting, rebounding, mobile centers, seniors, bench, zone, NBA style, money, tradition, crowds, or anything else you can come up with.

In Cronin's years, we were top 16 in efficiency only once. We went to the Sweet Sixteen once. We lost to a less efficient team three times (Harvard, St Joes, Nevada). We beat one more efficient team (Florida St). We also won two tossup games against a team ranked immediately below us (Texas, Purdue).

Nine years is a tiny sample size. No real conclusions can be drawn from that. For every anecdote like Cincinnati you find to support your point, you can find one to support a different point (like Creighton). There is a ton of random variation in basketball, which is what makes it so exciting. If just a couple games swing the other way, the narrative changes completely.
I agree, its usually comes down to a couple games changing things completely. If we beat Nevada, Cronin is probably still here. If Kenyon doesn't get hurt, Huggins might still be here. At some point you have to look at actual results, and nine years is a good chunk of time.
I also think you have to be able to score when playing good teams. They are going to score no matter how good your defense is.
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Old 01-24-2020, 09:46 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by sedziobs View Post
I believe efficiency is most important, with little regard to whether that efficiency is achieved through offense, defense, pace, toughness, basketball IQ, 3 pt shooting, rebounding, mobile centers, seniors, bench, zone, NBA style, money, tradition, crowds, or anything else you can come up with.

In Cronin's years, we were top 16 in efficiency only once. We went to the Sweet Sixteen once. We lost to a less efficient team three times (Harvard, St Joes, Nevada). We beat one more efficient team (Florida St). We also won two tossup games against a team ranked immediately below us (Texas, Purdue).

Nine years is a tiny sample size. No real conclusions can be drawn from that. For every anecdote like Cincinnati you find to support your point, you can find one to support a different point (like Creighton). There is a ton of random variation in basketball, which is what makes it so exciting. If just a couple games swing the other way, the narrative changes completely.
If efficiency is the key, the good news is we have a coach that cares and knows more about efficiency than anyone on here.
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Old 01-24-2020, 09:59 AM   #116
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If efficiency is the key, the good news is we have a coach that cares and knows more about efficiency than anyone on here.
i know im much more efficient at work when i dont open this website.
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Old 01-24-2020, 10:16 AM   #117
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i know im much more efficient at work when i dont open this website.
That’s the truth.

I’ll be in Mexico City for work for the @WSU game.

I hope I can stream it but if not I expect top notch in game analysis from all of you.
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Old 01-24-2020, 10:38 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by cincyguy13 View Post
We all change the goal post. Just like you do with Vogt. It used to be he can’t play at all, to he can’t do it the whole year, to the offense is designed for him. I’ve heard from many college basketball talking heads that offense is more important. Am I too lazy to do research? Yes. But no one has proven that defense is more important either. So I am still not sure what not playing Vogt would accomplish. If you have to be good at both, taking out an elite scorer will make the offense even worse. And offfense that isn’t as good as the defense. I’m pretty sure,
Vogt has definitely outperformed my expectations. The offense is designed for the bigs comment isn't meant to be an attack on Vogt. As I said in the comment, Vogt (and Scott and Diarra) still have to be in the right place and be able to finish (and seal their man out).

But overall, Vogt is barely better than average as a big man. Elite finisher at the rim, terrible defense and at best average rebounding. If you can take him out and the offense drops off by 5%, but the defense and rebounding increase by 10% it is a good trade. As Diarra improves on offense (especially if he can start hitting some more threes), that trade off becomes more and more possible as reality.

In real game to game terms, it's about finding and exploiting matchups and preventing the other team from doing the same. In many games, Vogt creates mismatches on offense, but he is also a defensive mismatch the other team looks to exploit. It's up to Brannen to determine which side is winning that battle and to adjust accordingly.
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Old 01-24-2020, 10:51 AM   #119
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I think we will have 4 positions (with Eason) who can put the ball on the floor and shoot. Finding a 5 who can do all that and score in the paint will be hard. Diara has SOME of that going for him and Vogt has 1. Toppin does it all. Even if we can find a poor man's Toppin...it would help a lot. Not sure how well Dou will be able to seal his man or put the ball on the ground.
Eason’s shot looks really broke. They might have to start from scratch with that thing. He looks really skilled aside from that.
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Old 01-24-2020, 11:05 AM   #120
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I think we will have 4 positions (with Eason) who can put the ball on the floor and shoot. Finding a 5 who can do all that and score in the paint will be hard. Diara has SOME of that going for him and Vogt has 1. Toppin does it all. Even if we can find a poor man's Toppin...it would help a lot. Not sure how well Dou will be able to seal his man or put the ball on the ground.
I think Diarra will get there. He has shown some ability to put the ball on the ground, but right now he gets too rushed when he drives and misses the shot. I think he will get there, it's just a matter of how long it takes. He should make another big jump next year, I expect him to be getting 30+ minutes as the starting PF.
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