Troy Caupain, biggest steal in '13 class

[waterhead]

Originally Posted by CaptDale

Let's not get ahead of ourselves, Waterhead. He's coming along at a rapid pace, but let's get a few more important games under our belts before we make him the second coming. But, that being siad, I do like you enthusiasm. You are #1 on the list in that category. Maybe a 5 star

LOL! Thanks.

However, it was a serious question because I was curious. I don't follow all of college BB...I just follow the Bearcats. I have no idea how many freshman PG's in the country are getting good minutes or how TC would rank against them. Usually freshman don't play a lot so I am completely in the dark on this one.

[waterhead]

Originally Posted by Nomadic1

I don't buy that argument. That assumes that he'll continue playing consistently whether he plays 10 minutes or 40 and people aren't fixed commodities like that. As you play, there's mental and physical strain. Not to mention the competition levels/schedule difficulties are different. And who's to say, that asking the others compared to him to shoulder a smaller role wouldn't improve their field goal% turnovers margin etc. ? And what of those things that don't show up on the stat sheet? That's just too open to take seriously imo.

As far as comparing him to Harrison, Caupain isn't 6'6. I think that comparison is rubbish tbh.

No disrespect but what you are talking about is conjecture (subjective) and what was offered were actual statistics (objective). There is just as much reason to believe his numbers would improve (flow of the game, chemistry) as they would decline (tired legs, mental fatigue) given more minutes. He is playing enough minutes in enough games for his stats to be meaningful. Expecting (or suggesting) they might change significantly with more minutes would be a statistical anomaly and something I wouldn't buy into without good reason.

[Nomadic1]

Originally Posted by waterhead

No disrespect but what you are talking about is conjecture (subjective) and what was offered were actual statistics (objective).
There is just as much reason to believe his numbers would improve (flow of the game, chemistry) as they would decline (tired legs, mental fatigue) given more minutes. He is playing enough minutes in enough games for his stats to be meaningful. Expecting (or suggesting) they might change significantly with more minutes would be a statistical anomaly and something I wouldn't buy into without good reason.

No disrespect to you either, however what you're offering are not actual statistics. They're made up fudge factors. Troy Caupain is not a mathematical constant. You assume he's good and so you assume he must be like other good players, even when his role and play are completely different. In effect, you use your assumptions to prove your assumptions. It amounts to "He's comparable because he's comparable." Circular logic. There's no reason to believe these statistics will work and there's no way you can test it, since he was never asked to play said minutes any way.

As for the mystical specters of flow and chemistry, I'm sorry that's religious not objective. You don't miss shots and turn the ball over because your momentum is off or because the guy next to you has no swagger, you just have poor form/handles/mechanics etc.

[waterhead]

Originally Posted by Nomadic1

No disrespect to you either, however what you're offering are not actual statistics. They're made up fudge factors. Troy Caupain is not a mathematical constant. You assume he's good and so you assume he must be like other good players, even when his role and play are completely different. In effect, you use your assumptions to prove your assumptions. It amounts to "He's comparable because he's comparable." Circular logic. There's no reason to believe these statistics will work and there's no way you can test it, since he was never asked to play said minutes any way.

As for the mystical specters of flow and chemistry, I'm sorry that's religious not objective. You don't miss shots and turn the ball over because your momentum is off or because the guy next to you has no swagger, you just have poor form/handles/mechanics etc.

I didn't assume Caupain was like anyone...you projected that into this debate because you are reading into things that have not been said.

Per minute played stats are not fudge factors they are REAL stats. They are used all the time to gain perspective and up until now were perfectly acceptable to make productivity "comparisons". Those stats were simply used as a comparison. You seem to think (even though it has not been said) that people were drawing specific conclusions from those stats...like Troy is as good as insert blank. That didn't happen to my knowledge.

As for flow and chemistry they are just two hypothetical examples of things that could POTENTIALLY have a positive affect with more minutes. Dismissing them as mystical is just...well...I will refrain. In football QB's like more time with WR's so they know where they are going to be in routes. In BB PG's would benefit from knowing the other player's tendencies...the more minutes you play with them the more you know. If you think team chemistry is mystical I don't know what to tell you...but you would be one of the very few people who doesn't think that is a sgnificant factor in BB games.

I am not arguing that chemistry and flow means Caupain would be better with more minutes. I am not arguing his stats would not get worse because of fatigue. I mentioned them both in my response without a prejudice for either.

[Nomadic1]

Originally Posted by waterhead

I didn't assume Caupain was like anyone...you projected that into this debate because you are reading into things that have not been said.

Per minute played stats are not fudge factors they are REAL stats.
They are used all the time to gain perspective and up until now were perfectly acceptable to make productivity "comparisons". Those stats were simply used as a comparison. You seem to think (even though it has not been said) that people were drawing specific conclusions from those stats...like Troy is as good as insert blank. That didn't happen to my knowledge.

As for flow and chemistry they are just two hypothetical examples of things that could POTENTIALLY have a positive affect with more minutes. Dismissing them as mystical is just...well...I will refrain. In football QB's like more time with WR's so they know where they are going to be in routes. In BB PG's would benefit from knowing the other player's tendencies...the more minutes you play with them the more you know. If you think team chemistry is mystical I don't know what to tell you...but you would be one of the very few people who doesn't think that is a sgnificant factor in BB games.

I am not arguing that chemistry and flow means Caupain would be better with more minutes. I am not arguing his stats would not get worse because of fatigue. I mentioned them both in my response without a prejudice for either.

Just for the sake of defending what I said,

You had to assume he was like someone, or you wouldn't have tried a comparative analysis to begin with. You didn't pull those other two players out of a vacuum. You thought you'd compare him to other freshman guards and in doing so, treated all freshman guards as a fixed commodity playing under the same schemes and with the same levels of fatigue and as though they were against the same competition.

You invented a creative fiction/false reality, where in Caupain played minutes that he in our world has not. Therefor, the adjusted minutes are a fudge factor, used to make your strawman world seem reasonable when contrasted to our real world. Whether you meant to or not, you used assumptions to demonstrate assumptions. I just don't think that argument is based in reality. These minutes were not played, they don't even exist. They're made up. We have game logs and video footage that demonstrate as much.

I just feel saying "if such and such player's minutes were actually this many, he would place here" is like saying "If my car was a fire breathing dragon, I'd have burnt down the work place and claimed any witnesses insane. Who's going to believe them?" A worthless hypothetical, given that I have a SUV and not a dragon there can never be said scenario, likewise Caupain never played such minutes or had such output.



But, there comes a point where arguing back and forth is no fun. I don't want a long drawn out debate anyway.

[waterhead]

Originally Posted by Nomadic1

Just for the sake of defending what I said,

You had to assume he was like someone, or you wouldn't have tried a comparative analysis to begin with. You didn't pull those other two players out of a vacuum. You thought you'd compare him to other freshman guards and in doing so, treated all freshman guards as a fixed commodity playing under the same schemes and with the same levels of fatigue and as though they were against the same competition.

You invented a creative fiction/false reality, where in Caupain played minutes that he in our world has not. Therefor, the adjusted minutes are a fudge factor, used to make your strawman world seem reasonable when contrasted to our real world. Whether you meant to or not, you used assumptions to demonstrate assumptions. I just don't think that argument is based in reality. These minutes were not played, they don't even exist. They're made up. We have game logs and video footage that demonstrate as much.

I just feel saying "if such and such player's minutes were actually this many, he would place here" is like saying "If my car was a fire breathing dragon, I'd have burnt down the work place and claimed any witnesses insane. Who's going to believe them?" A worthless hypothetical, given that I have a SUV and not a dragon there can never be said scenario, likewise Caupain never played such minutes or had such output.



But, there comes a point where arguing back and forth is no fun. I don't want a long drawn out debate anyway.

I think I know where things went wrong now Nomadic. Those aren't my stats. I simply responded to someone who posted them. I thought it was an objective way to look at things without creating subjective categories which cannot be calculated. However, I do think fatigue CAN be calculated and there may be a way somewhere to extract that data based on minutes played.

I enjoyed the discussion

[waterhead]

Originally Posted by Nomadic1

Just for the sake of defending what I said,

You had to assume he was like someone, or you wouldn't have tried a comparative analysis to begin with. You didn't pull those other two players out of a vacuum. You thought you'd compare him to other freshman guards and in doing so, treated all freshman guards as a fixed commodity playing under the same schemes and with the same levels of fatigue and as though they were against the same competition.

You invented a creative fiction/false reality, where in Caupain played minutes that he in our world has not. Therefor, the adjusted minutes are a fudge factor, used to make your strawman world seem reasonable when contrasted to our real world. Whether you meant to or not, you used assumptions to demonstrate assumptions. I just don't think that argument is based in reality. These minutes were not played, they don't even exist. They're made up. We have game logs and video footage that demonstrate as much.

I just feel saying "if such and such player's minutes were actually this many, he would place here" is like saying "If my car was a fire breathing dragon, I'd have burnt down the work place and claimed any witnesses insane. Who's going to believe them?" A worthless hypothetical, given that I have a SUV and not a dragon there can never be said scenario, likewise Caupain never played such minutes or had such output.



But, there comes a point where arguing back and forth is no fun. I don't want a long drawn out debate anyway.

Had you read my posts...especially this one...you would probably not even have started on me.

However, it was a serious question because I was curious. I don't follow all of college BB...I just follow the Bearcats. I have no idea how many freshman PG's in the country are getting good minutes or how TC would rank against them. Usually freshman don't play a lot so I am completely in the dark on this one.

[waterhead]

or this one...


That's a great way to break down stats. I love it when stats are put into perspective like this. Here is a question for everyone (because I have no idea)...where would you rank Caupain among the best freshman PG's in the country?

[Nomadic1]

Well, I assumed and made an ass out of myself too it seems.

Sorry lol

[waterhead]

Originally Posted by Nomadic1

Well, I assumed and made an ass out of myself too it seems.

Sorry lol

No problems and no grudges