St Johns Bball

[TheLongHaul]

Originally Posted by SJUBall

SJU has had better recruiting classes than Cronin last 2 years. This is not about one recruit. If you want to compare, go back 2 seasons to when Lavin took over, not before that.

We finished 3rd in the Big East in Lavin's first season. Last year we had to replace 12 scholarship players and had some "bumps" in the road like only 6 guys and Lavin sat the season out with cancer. Things back to business this year. I think SJU can be a top 6 Big East team this year. no pushover.

the last two years? SJU's 2011 class included 3 players that were declared ineligible, one that transferred midway through the season, and one that left for the NBA after one useless season which essentially added no value for SJU's.

[Doogle]

The only thing anyone can legitimately say about St. Johns right now is that on paper, they look talented. How all those pieces come together is anyone's guess.

Statistics lie a little bit when discussing UC. Gates was a great recruiting coup for Mick and we needed him at the time, but frankly doesn't fit the profile of what Mick wants UC to be. He'd like an athletic, hybrid-style team that plays more of a fluid open-post type of game. All the players he's recruited since Gates fit this mold - most notably Shaq Thomas, who redshirted last season and by all accounts was often the best player on the court in practices. Furthermore, Jermaine Sanders and Jeremiah Davis III contributed well as frosh at various points in the season - Sanders actually made an impact in UC's two tourney wins.

The biggest wild cards are Kelvin Gaines and Cheikh Mbodj. Gaines is an athletic beast and could be a very good shot blocker but is raw, hopefully his year in the program has given him a better idea of what he needs to do this offseason. Mbodj has intriguing potential but was hampered by injuries and the Xavier brawl. If either of these players step up, UC could be infinitely better than a year ago.

Lotta ifs here. But consider Dion Dixon, a player you cited as a top statistical guy that's leaving. Dion's only other major scholarship offer was Bradley if I'm not mistaken. He went from little-known mid major prospect to a huge, if inconsistent, part of 2 NCAA tourney teams. This is where Mick does a better job than almost anyone in the country of identifying under the radar talent before others and then developing that talent. It's why UC's two 2013 recruits are so significant, and why national recruiting rankings outside the top 20-50 aren't worth the paper they're printed on.

[Bearcat22]

Originally Posted by Doogle

The only thing anyone can legitimately say about St. Johns right now is that on paper, they look talented. How all those pieces come together is anyone's guess.

Statistics lie a little bit when discussing UC. Gates was a great recruiting coup for Mick and we needed him at the time, but frankly doesn't fit the profile of what Mick wants UC to be. He'd like an athletic, hybrid-style team that plays more of a fluid open-post type of game. All the players he's recruited since Gates fit this mold - most notably Shaq Thomas, who redshirted last season and by all accounts was often the best player on the court in practices. Furthermore, Jermaine Sanders and Jeremiah Davis III contributed well as frosh at various points in the season - Sanders actually made an impact in UC's two tourney wins.

The biggest wild cards are Kelvin Gaines and Cheikh Mbodj. Gaines is an athletic beast and could be a very good shot blocker but is raw, hopefully his year in the program has given him a better idea of what he needs to do this offseason. Mbodj has intriguing potential but was hampered by injuries and the Xavier brawl. If either of these players step up, UC could be infinitely better than a year ago.

Lotta ifs here. But consider Dion Dixon, a player you cited as a top statistical guy that's leaving. Dion's only other major scholarship offer was Bradley if I'm not mistaken. He went from little-known mid major prospect to a huge, if inconsistent, part of 2 NCAA tourney teams. This is where Mick does a better job than almost anyone in the country of identifying under the radar talent before others and then developing that talent. It's why UC's two 2013 recruits are so significant, and why national recruiting rankings outside the top 20-50 aren't worth the paper they're printed on.

Good points - I forgot the Dixon stuff from my post.

[SJUBall]

Originally Posted by Bearcat22

St. John's could struggle early as the team tries to develop chemistry. But there is a lot of talent. Nobody expects you to be an expert on the Cats, but while we're lucky to have possibly the best SG in the BEAST in Killapatrick and one of the best PG in Cash, we certainly have more then that coming back. Our best recruit a year ago, Shaq Thomas, was a redshirt (NCAA Clearinghouse related), Jackson (who you mentioned) has another year of development under his belt, Mbodj played last season on essentially one good ankle, Gaines can provide a defensive shot block presence and should see more minutes, Sanders (NYC guy) is by all accounts lighting up the summer workouts, Rubbles (one of the best Jucos in the country) will add to the front court, if you watched any of Cats games you saw that Parker is easily one of the toughest hard nosed intangible guys in the NCAA, Guyn already can play D-1 defense and will contribute at both guards positions, this could go on. Yes you have talent, so do we.

Your best player Kilpatrick is good. SJU's D'Angelo Harrison is better IMO and is likely best SG in Big East. Harrison averaged 17ppg as frosh in Big East last season. I expect even better this year. I love Kilpatrick but I think D'Lo is better.

Cashmere is excellent. SJU doesn't match up perfectly there with Phil Greene, but will have top 60 Pg transfer from Texas A&M Jamal Branch eligible for Big East play and I've heard he's excellent. he will likely move to starting PG spot when season in swing.

Rest of roster is excellent too. We return fantastic forwards Amir Garrett and SirDomnic Pointer, add JC AA PF Orlando Sanchez as well as Jakarr Sampson and Chris Obekpa and return a very solid God's Gift Achiuwa in the post who double-doubled aghast UK last year. That's not to mention several other talented freshmen like Felix Balamou, Darrick Wood, Marco Bourgault.

Lots of depth, but I read a lot of lofty talk here about Cincy's team and how much better. I don't see it just yet. I still see a lot of holes in the frontcourt for Cincy to fill. Nobody back statistically that is filling Dion's nor Yancy's role. No doubt some will step up but nobody in the frontcourt that's statistically dominating entering the season either. I see ur rosters matching up pretty closely which is my point, and not the mismatch some Cincy fans here making it out to be.

[SJUBall]

Originally Posted by TheLongHaul

the last two years? SJU's 2011 class included 3 players that were declared ineligible, one that transferred midway through the season, and one that left for the NBA after one useless season which essentially added no value for SJU's.

Those 6 guys of no value, all freshmen, managed to split games with Cincy last year. 5/6 are back this year.

[ucswais]

Two of the definite programs on the rise and both will be BE teams for the long haul. I don't really see any reason to tear each other down. Both have really good rosters and coaching, but nobody really knows how it all will come together for either.

[SJUBall]

Originally Posted by ucswais

Two of the definite programs on the rise and both will be BE teams for the long haul. I don't really see any reason to tear each other down. Both have really good rosters and coaching, but nobody really knows how it all will come together for either.

I agree. Like I said, I think a thread like this is a good one. SJU fans came here because of all of the claims of Lavin cheating to get Obekpa which is nonsense. I do like threads like this to discuss and compare both programs, not to tear anyone down. I think Cincy has a very good program entering this season.

I just suspect that most don't realize the type of talent and depth SJU looks to have this year. There will be a lot of surprises come Big East schedule time if everybody is expecting SJU to be a bottom feeder.

[Bearcat22]

Originally Posted by SJUBall

Your best player Kilpatrick is good. SJU's D'Angelo Harrison is better IMO and is likely best SG in Big East. Harrison averaged 17ppg as frosh in Big East last season. I expect even better this year. I love Kilpatrick but I think D'Lo is better.

Cashmere is excellent. SJU doesn't match up perfectly there with Phil Greene, but will have top 60 Pg transfer from Texas A&M Jamal Branch eligible for Big East play and I've heard he's excellent. he will likely move to starting PG spot when season in swing.

Rest of roster is excellent too. We return fantastic forwards Amir Garrett and SirDomnic Pointer, add JC AA PF Orlando Sanchez as well as Jakarr Sampson and Chris Obekpa and return a very solid God's Gift Achiuwa in the post who double-doubled aghast UK last year. That's not to mention several other talented freshmen like Felix Balamou, Darrick Wood, Marco Bourgault.

Lots of depth, but I read a lot of lofty talk here about Cincy's team and how much better. I don't see it just yet. I still see a lot of holes in the frontcourt for Cincy to fill. Nobody back statistically that is filling Dion's nor Yancy's role. No doubt some will step up but nobody in the frontcourt that's statistically dominating entering the season either. I see ur rosters matching up pretty closely which is my point, and not the mismatch some Cincy fans here making it out to be.

We'll have to respectfully disagree about Kilpatrick vs Harrison. Doesn't Jay Billas always use the phrase "reasonable minds can differ" when he's debating with the other analyists...I would view this in that category. We'll see as the season unfolds.

I like the upperclassman toughness that the Cats have and think it should serve them well in conference play. I think our depth will allows us to play more up-tempo and we can feature multiple looks. I think St. John's getting Sanchez could be a total steal. I wanted then Cat's to get him. In that regard, I think we got a steal in Titus Rubbles.

Both teams have talent. I want the Big East to dominate the other conferences and both our teams being talented helps that cause. When the Cats play you, clearly I want a crushing win for the Cats. I would expect you to want the opposite. If you ever play Xavier, I will root as hard as I can for you.

[TheLongHaul]

Originally Posted by SJUBall

Those 6 guys of no value, all freshmen, managed to split games with Cincy last year. 5/6 are back this year.

You keep referencing the split series like it means something. First, if you want to use head to head as some sort of indicator, I guess Northeastern was much better than SJU's and must have had better recruiting classes, correct? SJU lost by 14 to Northeastern. Your season sucked last year. You lost by 20 to Pitt, and Pitt sucked last year. Second, UC played one of it's worst games of the year and lost on a last second shot. The next time UC played SJU's, UC won by 22 points. Yep, that's right, 22 points....So keep talking about the "split" all you want, the fact of the matter is UC was a 6 seed in the NCAA's, went to the finals of the BET and finished 4th in the league. SJU's sucked. Blame it on the fact that they only had 6 guys all you want, but that was Lavin's fault for recruiting those guys. Everyone in the world knew that Sampson wasn't going to qualify yet Lavin was the one coach that would take him.

You may very well be good next year. There is pretty good talent there but last year you weren't and the 2011 recruiting class was just average.

[SJUBall]

Originally Posted by Bearcat22

We'll have to respectfully disagree about Kilpatrick vs Harrison. Doesn't Jay Billas always use the phrase "reasonable minds can differ" when he's debating with the other analyists...I would view this in that category. We'll see as the season unfolds.

I like the upperclassman toughness that the Cats have and think it should serve them well in conference play. I think our depth will allows us to play more up-tempo and we can feature multiple looks. I think St. John's getting Sanchez could be a total steal. I wanted then Cat's to get him. In that regard, I think we got a steal in Titus Rubbles.

Both teams have talent. I want the Big East to dominate the other conferences and both our teams being talented helps that cause. When the Cats play you, clearly I want a crushing win for the Cats. I would expect you to want the opposite. If you ever play Xavier, I will root as hard as I can for you.

All well-said. The Kilpatrick vs Harrison thing is certainly debatable but both at the top level in this league and both have similar numbers... With D'Lo leading